[Python-Dev] PEP 453 Round 4 - Explicit bootstrapping of pip in Python installations

Nick Coghlan ncoghlan at gmail.com
Thu Sep 19 15:48:49 CEST 2013

On 19 Sep 2013 23:37, "Paul Tagliamonte" <paultag at debian.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 09:27:24AM -0400, Donald Stufft wrote:
> > Rationale
> > =========
> >
> > Currently, on systems without a platform package manager and repository,
> > installing a third-party Python package into a freshly installed Python
> > requires first identifying an appropriate package manager and then
> > installing it.
> Howdy Donald,
> Thanks for helping make Python better.
> However, speaking as a Debian-folk (but not for the Debian-folk, I'll
> let barry take care of that), many users of Python software don't even
> know what pip is (or even that Python exists) -- as such, I find it very
> unlikely that a development tool would be shiped as part of the Python
> distribution in Debian. I don't see this changing, even with this pep.
> python-pip is still installable, but I don't see it pulled in by
> default.
> > Even on systems that *do* have a platform package manager, it is
unlikely to
> > include every package that is available on the Python Package Index, and
> Yes. This is true. However, it's not Debian's job to include all of
> pypi. Pypi allows anyone to upload, and we have quite a bit of attention
> to concerns such as providing source for everything (less of a concern
> for Python, but pickles can still contain data not in the prefered form
> of modification), and proper free software licensing.
> We also have a concern about stability; so we manage all the package set
> together to allow non-technical end-users to install stuff and not worry
> about breaking their system. It's not always the case where you can
> upgrade a library without breaking API.
> I'm trimming the rest, since I don't want to get dragged into
> side-conversations about pip as a package manager.

That's OK, especially if running "pip" recommends installing "python-pip"
and "pyvenv" and "extractpip" are also separated out so that running
"pyvenv" recommends installing a suitable package that depends on both
Python and "python-pip".

We can add that to the PEP as an alternative approach for redistributors to
take that still offers a reasonable end-user experience.


> Cheers,
>   Paul
> --
>  .''`.  Paul Tagliamonte <paultag at debian.org>
> : :'  : Proud Debian Developer
> `. `'`  4096R / 8F04 9AD8 2C92 066C 7352  D28A 7B58 5B30 807C 2A87
>  `-     http://people.debian.org/~paultag
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