[Python-ideas] Documenting Python warts on Stack Overflow

[Ryan Macy]

I'm a young developer (22) that is aspiring to contribute to the python 
language and I think another perspective could help the conversation. 
What I believe Anataoly is asking for, albeit phrased in a different 
manner, is the ability to clearly see what the core issues/needs are in 
the language. I've been able to discern through time, and the python 
mailing lists, that packaging, multitasking, and timezone support are 
areas that could use help. Sure, 'wart' is subjective, but I believe the 
point made in between the lines is valid.

Is there a place that holds the key improvements that the python 
language needs, so that we can work to it better? If that's the bug 
tracker, is there a method already in place that signals areas that need 
improvements or fixes? [I know that there are severity levels, etc :)]

FWIW I've joined the python-mentor list, have read most of the devguide, 
and lurked on the bug tracker; I still feel like there is tons of 
context that I'm missing, which has me chasing PEPs constantly - So I'm 
definitely able to resonate the with this thread.

I apologize if I'm waay off target.

_Ryan

> Victor Stinner <mailto:victor.stinner at gmail.com>
> December 30, 2012 4:20 PM
> 2012/12/26 anatoly techtonik<techtonik at gmail.com>:
>> I am thinking about [python-wart] on SO.
>
> I'm not sure that StackOverflow is the best place for such project.
> (Note: please avoid abreviation, not all people know this website.)
>
>> There is no currently a list of
>> Python warts, and building a better language is impossible without a clear
>> visibility of warts in current implementations.
>
> Sorry, but what is a wart in Python?
>
>> Why Roundup doesn't work ATM.
>> - warts are lost among other "won't fix" and "works for me" issues
>
> When an issue is closed with "won't fix", "works for me", "invalid" or
> something like this, a comment always explain why. If you don't
> understand or such comment is missing, you can ask for more
> information.
>
> If you don't agree, the bug tracker is maybe not the right place for
> such discussion. The python-ideas mailing list is maybe a better place
> :-)
>
> Sometimes, the best thing to do is to propose a patch to enhance the
> documentation.
>
>> - no way to edit description to make it more clear
>
> You can add comments, it's almost the same.
>
>> - no voting/stars to percieve how important is this issue
>
> Votes are a trap. It's not how Python is developed. Python core
> developers are not paid to work on Python, and so work only on issues
> which interest them.
>
> I don't think that votes would help to fix an issue.
>
> If you want an issue to be closed:
> - ensure that someone else reproduced it: if not, provide more information
> - help to analyze the issue and track the bug in the code
> - propose a patch with tests and documentation
>
>> - no comment/noise filtering
>
> I don't have such problem. Can you give an example of issue which
> contains many useless comments?
>
>> and the most valuable
>> - there is no query to list warts sorted by popularity to explore other
>> time-consuming areas of Python you are not aware of, but which can popup one
>> day
>
> Sorry, I don't understand, maybe because I don't know what a wart is.
>
> --
>
> If I understood correctly, you would like to list some specific issues
> like print() not flushing immediatly stdout if you ask to not write a
> newline (print "a", in Python 2 or print("a", end=" ") in Python 3).
> If I understood correctly, and if you want to improve Python, you
> should help the documentation project. Or if you can build a website
> listing such issues *and listing solutions* like calling
> sys.stdout.flush() or using print(flush=True) (Python 3.3+) for the
> print issue.
>
> A list of such issue without solution doesn't help anyone.
>
> Victor
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> anatoly techtonik <mailto:techtonik at gmail.com>
> December 25, 2012 6:10 PM
> I am thinking about [python-wart] on SO. There is no currently a list 
> of Python warts, and building a better language is impossible without 
> a clear visibility of warts in current implementations.
>
> Why Roundup doesn't work ATM.
> - warts are lost among other "won't fix" and "works for me" issues
> - no way to edit description to make it more clear
> - no voting/stars to percieve how important is this issue
> - no comment/noise filtering
> and the most valuable
> - there is no query to list warts sorted by popularity to explore 
> other time-consuming areas of Python you are not aware of, but which 
> can popup one day
>
> SO at least allows:
> + voting
> + community wiki edits
> + useful comment upvoting
> + sorted lists
> + user editable tags (adding new warts is easy)
>
> This post is a result of facing with numerous locals/settrace/exec 
> issues that are closed on tracker. I also have my own list of other 
> issues (logging/subprocess) at GC project, which I might be unable to 
> maintain in future. There is also some undocumented stuff (subprocess 
> deadlocks) that I'm investigating, but don't have time for a write-up. 
> So I'd rather move this somewhere where it could be updated.
> -- 
> anatoly t.
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