[Python-ideas] Clearer communication

Fri Feb 1 19:57:56 EST 2019

[David Mertz]

> To be clear. Most of what I don't want is a system where OTHER people are
> relying on ratings rather than careful reading.

In my experience, there's nothing you can do to make other people read
anything carefully. Plus, many of the counterpoints have been "I have a lot
more freedom in filtering and organizing emails with my email client", so I
fear your dreams of forcing everybody to read everything will never be
realized. As I've pointed out before, putting things in chronological order
doesn't force people to read anything, it just favors new over old. I
haven't read any of the discussions before 2016 (save a few).

[David Mertz]

> Mind you, I do know this other than this sort of discussion had other
> needs. GitHub issues are very useful. Occasionally I'll even go back and
> edit a prior comment rather than add another. But there I'm trying to make
> the issue genuinely correctly describe the issue at hand.

The ability to edit in discussions is useful for the exact same reason.

I have to say. I've frequented Reddit for years and never had to deal with
a disingenuous edit. I think that fear is a bit overblown.

[David Mertz]

> Stack Overflow or Stack Exchange are very useful for finding technical
> answers. Voting up best response there is extremely useful.
> I do not want python-ideas to resemble those. It is simply not the
> appropriate kind of discussion.

I find it very useful for discussion. I don't know why people keep
declaring it's no good for discussion without explaining why.

On Fri, Feb 1, 2019 at 6:37 PM David Mertz <mertz at gnosis.cx> wrote:

> To be clear. Most of what I don't want is a system where OTHER people are
> relying on ratings rather than careful reading. I want to communicate on
> changes where posts cannot be "voted up" or edited, etc.
>
> Mind you, I do know this other than this sort of discussion had other
> needs. GitHub issues are very useful. Occasionally I'll even go back and
> edit a prior comment rather than add another. But there I'm trying to make
> the issue genuinely correctly describe the issue at hand.
>
> Stack Overflow or Stack Exchange are very useful for finding technical
> answers. Voting up best response there is extremely useful.
>
> I do not want python-ideas to resemble those. It is simply not the
> appropriate kind of discussion.
>
> On Fri, Feb 1, 2019, 7:30 PM Abe Dillon <abedillon at gmail.com wrote:
>
>> [David Mertz]
>>
>>> I have absolutely no interest in any system that arranges comments in
>>> anything but related thread and chronological order. I DO NOT want any
>>> rating or evaluation of comments of any kind other than my own evaluation
>>> based on reading them. Well, also in reading the informed opinions of other
>>> readers.
>>
>>
>>
>> I would find it useless if not actively counterproductive to follow any
>>> system where such ratings of comments existed.
>>
>>
>> Then just sort by chronological order.
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 1, 2019 at 6:19 PM David Mertz <mertz at gnosis.cx> wrote:
>>
>>> I have absolutely no interest in any system that arranges comments in
>>> anything but related thread and chronological order. I DO NOT want any
>>> rating or evaluation of comments of any kind other than my own evaluation
>>> based on reading them. Well, also in reading the informed opinions of other
>>> readers.
>>>
>>> I would find it useless if not actively counterproductive to follow any
>>> system where such ratings of comments existed.
>>>
>>> There is one property that every system invented to supercede email have
>>> in common. They are all dramatically worse in almost every way.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 1, 2019, 5:09 PM Abe Dillon <abedillon at gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>  [Dan Sommers]
>>>>
>>>>> Another point in favor of email clients over web pages is
>>>>> that there are many of them, and *you* control the display
>>>>> and other preferences rather than whoever wrote the forum
>>>>> or owns the server.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There is a tool called the Reddit Enhancement Suite or RES (and
>>>> probably others)
>>>> That lets you control a great deal of the display and other
>>>> preferences, however; I'm not
>>>> sure how that control compares to something like Thunderbird.
>>>>
>>>> One thing that's nice about Reddit is you can link to posts, so if
>>>> you've already discussed something at length in another thread,
>>>> you can simply refer to that discussion.
>>>>
>>>>  [Dan Sommers]
>>>>
>>>>> In an optimal technical discussion, opinions from users
>>>>> don't count for anything.  The ideas stand on their own
>>>>> merits and research and metrics; users only serve to
>>>>> confirm the methodology.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A lot can be said about how an ideal world would work. Ideally, we
>>>> could define the meaning of life and good and evil and we wouldn't need
>>>> this clumsy system of laws and courts to approximate the whole mess.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think it's that crazy to think that a voting system might
>>>> approximate merit a little better than the timestamp on a post.
>>>> It's not going to be perfect, but perfect shouldn't be the enemy of
>>>> better.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Feb 1, 2019 at 3:17 PM Dan Sommers <
>>>> 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2/1/19 2:58 PM, Abe Dillon wrote:
>>>>> > [Dan Sommers]
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> A mailing list is not a feed... Dan, a decades and decades long fan
>>>>> of
>>>>> >> mailing lists and real email clients.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I'm only familiar with Gmail which keeps reply chains coherent and
>>>>> moves
>>>>> > each chain to the top of my "forums" tab based on who responded last.
>>>>> > I haven't explored the various email clients available, can you
>>>>> suggest one?
>>>>>
>>>>> I used mutt for a long time, and then claws-mail, and now
>>>>> thunderbird.  They all met my needs, although I did give
>>>>> up on claws-mail when I got a hidpi display (claws-mail
>>>>> based on gtk2, which doesn't grok hidpi displays).
>>>>>
>>>>> Another point in favor of email clients over web pages is
>>>>> that there are many of them, and *you* control the display
>>>>> and other preferences rather than whoever wrote the forum
>>>>> or owns the server.
>>>>>
>>>>> > [Dan Sommers]
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Whoever posted last ends up at the bottom of the thread, so that I
>>>>> can
>>>>> >> read threads from top to bottom in chronological order.  Getting the
>>>>> >> last word in shouldn't earn a spot at the top of the list.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > That doesn't like any closer an approximation to a merit-based
>>>>> solution to
>>>>> > me.
>>>>> Perhaps not all by itself.  Many/most email clients allow
>>>>> individual users to "score" emails by various criteria, and
>>>>> then to display higher scoring messages "above" the others,
>>>>> or not display certain messages at all.  Personally, I don't
>>>>> use the automated systems, but they're very comprehensive
>>>>> (arguably too complicated), and again, *user* adjustable.
>>>>>
>>>>> In an optimal technical discussion, opinions from users
>>>>> don't count for anything.  The ideas stand on their own
>>>>> merits and research and metrics; users only serve to
>>>>> confirm the methodology.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dan
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
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