Py 2.5 on Language Shootout

[Isaac Gouy]

Ramon Diaz-Uriarte wrote:
> On 20 Jan 2007 11:34:46 -0800, Isaac Gouy <igouy at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > Ramon Diaz-Uriarte wrote:
> > > On 1/20/07, Carl Friedrich Bolz <cfbolz at gmx.de> wrote:
> > > > pgarrone at acay.com.au wrote:
> > > >  >>> Looking over the benchmarks, one gains the impression that Python is a
> > > >  >>> slow language.
> > > >  >> What does that even mean - a slow language?
> > > >  >>
> > > >  >
> > > >  > The alioth benchmarks provide a set of numbers by which
> > > >  > languages may be compared.
> > > >
> > > > Wrong. The benchmarks provide a set of numbers by which
> > > > _implementations_ of languages can be compared. After all, it is
> > > > possible that someone implements a magic-pixie-dust-interpreter that
> > > > executes Python programs several orders of magnitude fastes than
> > > > CPython. Or you could say that C is slow because if you use CINT, a C
> > > > interpreter ( http://root.cern.ch/root/Cint.html ) to execute it, it is
> > > > slow.
> > >
> > >
> > > Yeah, but this is hair-splitting. Except for Jython, IronPython, and
> > > Stackless, I think when we say "Python is slow/fast" we think CPython
> > > (otherwise, we qualify the implementation). For that matter it is
> > > often said "the GIL ..."; oh, but wait, Stackless ...
> >
> > When we say "Python is slow/fast" what does "slow/fast" mean?
> >
>
> Oh, well, I have no idea. I guess you'd have to define what "speed"
> and, if that is a single number, then we can just rank languages. We'd
> probably never agree on how to obtain a single number. But I think
> most of us, when looking at the shootout, can see that there are some
> languages that, for most of the programs, are consistently faster than
> the rest, and others that are consistently slower. But really, I think
> the shootout page has large, detailed and <b></b> statements about the
> perils and pitfalls of measuring these things. (And I do not go to the
> shootout to hear the oracle tell me which language I should use in my
> next project).

That's wise ;-)

Yes the shootout page has statements about the perils and pitfalls of
measuring these things - it's encouraging that at least one person has
noticed :-)


>
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > With other languages (e.g., Common Lisp) the separation between the
> > > language and the implementation is key because, to begin with, there
> > > is something external from, and independent of, any particular
> > > implementation. That is not the case with Python.
> > >
> > > And the example of CINT is hair-splitting to the nth power.To begin
> > > with, I do not think CINT implements the full standard C. But even if
> > > it were, when people think of C they rarely think of CINT.
> >
> > And that's why the existence of CINT is such a stark reminder of the
> > separation between the language and the implementation. When people
> > think of C what do they think of - gcc? tiny-c? intel c? microsoft c?
> > some mythical C implementation?
> >
> >
>
> Really, this ain't my war. Sure, there are two things: the language
> and the implementation. But, for practical purposes, when most people
> today say Python they mean CPython, whereas if the say Scheme, they
> certainly need to say _which_ Scheme (I think only PLT is in the
> official shootout page; there are others in the beta tests). If people
> want to mean Jython or Stackless, they just say that. As for C, I
> think people will need to qualify what exactly they mean.
>
> I think all these issues do not really lead to confusion for most of
> us; certainly not if you go to the shootout page. But as I said, this
> ain't my war. I was simply pointing out that correcting one poster for
> talking about languages when referring to python was hair splitting.
>
> And I think we are all running in circles, because I guess we all
> agree. This is turning into what in Spain (a country of catholic
> tradition) we call a discussion about "the sex of the angels" (el sexo
> de los angeles), i.e., whether angels are male or female or something
> else. Since sexing angels is not my area of expertise, I'll just shut
> up (I actually don't really know why I even said anything about this
> issue; please, forgive my chatiness).


In England the corresponding expression is "Counting Angels on a
Pinhead"
http://dannyayers.com/2001/misc/angels.htm

>
> Best,
>
> R.
>
>
> > >
> > > I think readers understood the previous poster.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > R.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > >
> > > > Carl Friedrich Bolz
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ramon Diaz-Uriarte
> > > Statistical Computing Team
> > > Structural Biology and Biocomputing Programme
> > > Spanish National Cancer Centre (CNIO)
> > > http://ligarto.org/rdiaz
> >
> > --
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> >
>
>
> --
> Ramon Diaz-Uriarte
> Statistical Computing Team
> Structural Biology and Biocomputing Programme
> Spanish National Cancer Centre (CNIO)
> http://ligarto.org/rdiaz