[Tutor] Database driven web sites with python

[Charlie Clark]

> Not only that: Content, Style and Logic are three separate things. It 
> should be possible to deal with these things independently, and by 
> different people.
This is correct and it's the theory. Most of the projects I have worked on 
usually involve layouts -> HTML-templates -> CMS-templates + code and it 
isn't long before a small team is basically doing all the maintenance: 
design doesn't change that often so you need programmers who know HTML 
anyway.

> Your project might start small, and grow, and then suddenly you realize 
> that you need to have someone who thinks HTML is a programing language 
> fiddle in your Python code with embedded HTML. Horror...
Agreed particularly as they quite often think HTML is easy. Well, it would 
be if it wasn't constantly being abused for presentation stuff.
 
> Yes I think ZPT and CHTL are similar. IIRC I first heard of the concept 
> by someone who tried to "reinvent" ZOPE using this concept and others, 
> but Zope is a huge, monolithic "monster" compared to little CherryPy. 
> (Nothing bad about monsters... Many of my best friends are monsters! ;)

Have to agree with you on this. Zope really is an application server but 
it's surprisingly easy to use when you consider that. It's kind of 
beguiling by the fact that you can get started so quickly with it on to 
bash your head with permissions and local roles and all kinds other things 
you never expected to meet. Zope gives you a whole lot including security 
and scalability. For advances projects of whatever nature you need 
programmers and the fact that extensions are programmed in Python is an 
advantage for Zope in comparison with other systems. Python is the secret 
weapon as Jim Fulton is fond of saying it.
 
> Sure. Was that dutch? Close to Swedish: "F=F6rl=E5t mig" (For English peo=
ple, 
> that's pronounced "furLORT may", and means "forgive me".)
Yes, it was and bad Dutch at that. I know how to say f=F6rlaat me (don't 
have =B0a on my keyboard) but had forgotten how to spell it. Urs=E4kta! 
Really need to practice my Swedish.
 
> Aha. That can mean anything from vapourware to rock solid. People seem to=
 
> have very different opinions about when to say: Done!
Very, very true especially in the realm of free software and really true 
when it comes to Zope products.
 
> As I said, I'll have a look when 3.1 is out. I hope that Zope will "come 
> back" to the rest of the tool chest, so that it's not all a mystery in 
> ZODB... I like ZODB, and I use it a lot, but for data, not for "code".
Zope 3 kind of relies on CVS which is probably one of the reasons to expect=
 
improved support.
 
> I guess I never really NEEDED to use it... We'll see... Maybe my brain 
> backfires one day, and I sign a contract do build a big, dynamic web site=
.

No, please don't! Leave them to rest of us! ;-)
 
> I must say that my user experience with things like Plone etc are not 
> very positive. I prefer MoinMoin every time.

I can't say I've used either. I know that Plone has received an awful lot 
of focussed development and has really brought Zope's CMF on a lot - nobody=
 
really seemed to understand what to do with the CMF until Plone started. 
There are, however, complete CMS based on Zope like torped's Easy Publisher=
 
and I tbink it's important to note here that Zope really shines as a basis 
for building applications even if it's still a warty monster. I've worked 
with lots of CMS in my time and yet to see one which makes me say: that 
does things which Zope never could.

But one size *never* fits all.

Charlie