[Tutor] Create command

[dn]

What is my background to this sort of disagreement?
(certainly wouldn't claim particular expertise!)

I've been advising/discussing with a group of university staff the
subject of "community" and how they can establish same amongst their
students, alumni, and other interested parties. As well as the usual
mode of staff helping students, and even (more experienced) students
helping students, we also looked at the opposite side of that
assumed-relationship. What should the questioner do? How should (s)he
behave? What should be expected of such BEFORE the first question is
asked? Is there any point in expecting anything?
(most popular question for any webinar etc (outside of formal
courseware): "is this session being recorded?" - despite it being
mentioned on the invitation, advertising, meeting-notifications,
whatever! Who reads that stuff? - and why not?)

Secondly, contributing 'here' regularly (cf @Steve, @Nadine, and
@Dominique appearing for the first time - albeit not recognising the
names, and only checked back over the last three months)

Thirdly, am currently putting-together a Coding Challenge, and have been
generously-assisted by one of the contributors to this thread, in-part
ensuring that I don't 'talk down' or otherwise fail to properly
appreciate the learner's point-of-view.

With that said, taking a look at the discussion:-


On 23/09/2022 06.21, Steve Willoughby wrote:
> Personally, I think a tutor list should be as friendly to people seeking tutorial (i.e. beginner-level) help as they try to figure out Python, even if it’s their first experience with programming, while at the same time holding firm on our position of offering advice without doing homework for them.

Everyone will agree with this statement.
(and not only to the benefit of "Beginners" - correspondents have been
know to ask quite 'advanced' questions, seeking a tutorial response)

The "homework" part is a regular theme. Regular correspondents can find
it difficult to remember that giving a 'no homework' answer to Fred one
day, is not somehow imparted to Barney the next. Nevertheless, saying
the same thing over-and-over is irritating - which is (one of the
reasons) why "Tutor" is separate from 'the Python list'!

The point is that the student has been set a task - and it's not that
specific assignment! The student-task is to learn. Learning is unlikely
to occur by copying (plagiarism) or having someone else tell you how/do
the assignment.

Hence the value of the respondent's tactic: "advice". Trouble is: it's
often less-effort to give the answer!

There is a student market-place featuring "paper-mills", ie
organisations which, for a fee, will deliver completed
student-assignments. Accordingly, there are students who may come 'here'
thinking that to be the list's purpose (and hence the subsequent comment
about perhaps asking to be $paid)!

Aside: relevant to assignments and "grading" is the widespread
availability of AI programming-assistants. Thus, programming
assignment-completion without "learning" - cognitive by-pass mode.


> What concerned me most about Dominique’s request was the thought that a teacher was expecting her to complete an assignment without adequately preparing her to understand what was needed. 

Quite possibly the case. However, is this the only interpretation?

How about: the student didn't pay attention when the teacher explained... ?

(my second job at university was what is now often called a "TA"
(Teacher's Assistant). The lecturer would brief me about the next
assignment (and presumably checked that I could answer it myself!).
Later students would seek assistance. A fair proportion were unable to
explain the basis of the assignment and/or the lecture topics leading
into same!)


Why would a teacher fail to prepare his/her students?

Assumptions about that might be negative, but there-again, there are
times when the research-component of an assignment is just as important
as reaching 'the answer'.
(not that first-steps-in-Python would be a good time for such a
learning-technique!)


The approach to these sorts of posts may be to (first) ask questions and
seek more 'background'.
(yes, some think it rude to answer a question with a question, but you
know the aphorism about "assumptions", and it'd be a total waste of time
to disappear on some incorrect 'tangent'!)


(Of course, if this was a case of her working on her own to learn Python
using exercises she found on her own, then bravo for being
self-motivated and maybe it would be good to start with one of the
tutorial books or websites that will give a gentle introduction to it
all up front.)

Ah, so the respondent realised that the circumstances were totally
unknown and un-stated.
(an observation of the situation, not a criticism of the person)

Who knows the OP's circumstances?
Who has the power/responsibility to communicate those to the list?
Why? Why not?

Asking questions, particularly on a list like this is a skill, ie is
something to be learned. There are numbers of posts, blogs, and the like
aiming to encourage 'good questions'!


Sometimes such questions come-across as a demand. Maybe that is
laziness. Often it is a matter of language - many list-members do not
speak English as their first- or home-language!


In this case: «Create a command line tool...» has all the hallmarks of a
direct quotation of a student assignment - but don't "Tutors" deal with
assignments? However, no background was provided, eg doing a course,
which course, what book, what is current topic, etc.

Should the OP 'set the scene' with care? What is the element of 'help us
to help you'?
(some even seem to think we/someone here is paid to answer questions -
which is not the case. Hence, should there be respect for, and how does
one show respect for (helpful) peoples' time-donation?)

Personally, after asking myself the question: what is the "Create
command"? (message subject), followed by reading "...command line
tool..." and later what appears to be a Python dictionary; I came away
confused by both the (apparent lack of) 'question' and the what/why/how.
So, feeling over-busy, I was very happy to see @Steve handling things.
Thanks and credit to you!


I didn’t mind that she was looking here for help, although my response
was to try to point her in the right direction and let her keep trying,
knowing she’d learn a lot more that way than if I just gave her the
answer. I hope nothing in that was taken to be negative or condescending.

IMHO you soldiered-on bravely. Well done!

Similarly, don't think the negative vibes were aimed in your direction!

Here's hoping you will contribute similarly in-future, and that there
may be ideas in this response which will empower your future endeavors...


>> On 22-Sep-2022, at 05:42, Nadine Mullings <nmullings1 at fordham.edu> wrote:
>>
>> This is a listserv that goes out to multiple recipients. I would encourage

Trouble is, various posts appear to have been sent directly to
correspondents and/or to include attachments which the list-server
strips. Have these list-failings been mentioned? Has the 'missing data'
been posted?

Also not-mentioned, is that conversations 'here' are not merely between
participants. There are many others (rejoicing under the wonderful label
of "lurkers") who read messages in the expectation of learning.
Accordingly, missing information becomes a disservice.


>> those who offer help to assume positive intent and share help in that
>> spirit otherwise reserve their additional commentary for outside this
>> chain. It was disappointing to see the blatantly condescending response to
>> this inquiry.

There's an interpretation here too - which may or may not be
correct/fair/whatever.
(see also 'language', above! What seems arrogant in one society may
qualify as normal-expression in another. Many mistake my Socratic style
of questioning for (my) ignorance - and don't get me started on
self-deprecating humor!)

Also, actions speak louder than words!
Walk a mile in ...


However, most of us will agree strongly with the first sentence. It is
very much a truth! How can a 'community' like this exist, except
enacting a positive rôle?


Relationships are two-way (cue: "it takes two to tango").

How does this come-across?
«I never asked anyone to DO my homework I was providing what I had so I
could have a better understanding.  Thank you, I will no longer need
service from you all.»

- what was written was interpreted to be some form of homework, and by
more than one respondent
- how does the word "asked" fit into the OP?
- what was "provided"?
- what did the OP imagine was the list's "service"?
- "all" - what have we "all" done to deserve such?

>From this it seems unlikely that the OP will return. On the one hand
that represents failure. On the other hand, reviewing the thread from
start-to-finish has only left me wondering: what was the actual
question? and, if/what was the eventual answer? - which means it was
unlikely to have offered benefit to anyone else either. Another failure!


Lots to learn!


If there are ways to assist contributors, many of us (who have 'been
around' for a while) will be happy to advise and discuss.

If the OP would like to try again, this time within the list-server's
capabilities, and with sufficient information to enable us to better
help you, I (again, no doubt amongst others) will be happy to help...
-- 
Regards,
=dn