Our list serv host is threatening to shut us down for spam abuse
We have a community list-serv for local trade and community announcements with a subscriber base of nearly 2200 people. Our police and city use it for public service announcements, people use it for selling/trading virtually anything (seal oil, outboards, guns, blue berries, you name it) and is by subscription only.
If someone is not a member, they cannot post. When a member posts, it goes to all others subscribers.
Any suggestions on how to answer this:
Here is the threat (hopefully I've removed personal emails from it):
Hello,
These cross promotion posts from your mailing list will need to cease or we will not host you any further. We have mounting complaints from AOL, Yahoo and Hotmail with some of which are now blocking the server you're on specifically because of your mailings. This is not isolated to a single set of users complaining it's a large amount that is enough for these providers to take action. Here's an example of Hotmail complaining today:
X-HmXmrOriginalRecipient: < <tylerwcase@hotmail.com>snip> X-Reporter-IP: 72.169.153.180 X-Message-Guid: e33ffe03-30cf-11e6-80b9-00215ad73ee2 x-store-info:qAUQJzZ73IJCLUJ+0n7ZQ5Y+hDtA5T0pTzngeWExSOA+js5BQ3esJZEb/ hCqmGYMGDPlv0qhfifSNEBY0EeR7jdY3RHpNqJWr7fgFVdKgCT42ZLOh4B1Z k6HwMHyTEbaui0SFrS8NYUVpqQ8zI3RRBiLXYw949+B Authentication-Results: hotmail.com; spf=pass (sender IP is 198.252.106.58) smtp.mailfrom=nome-announce-bounces@nomekennelclub.com; dkim=pass header.d= nomekennelclub.com; x-hmca=pass header.id= nome-announce-bounces@nomekennelclub.com X-SID-PRA: nome-announce-bounces@nomekennelclub.com X-AUTH-Result: PASS X-SID-Result: PASS X-Message-Status: n:n X-Message-Delivery: Vj0xLjE7dXM9MDtsPTA7YT0wO0Q9MztHRD0zO1NDTD00 X-Message-Info: JfKzZGNUCEyn6uZ8X2pDbY1Het57KTCuLVm3gAtPdrrl2td44M/ wLebIq7P6BcKz/Tq4wTZhsfxggLRurC3yAI0ChdmMAEfJOhmwoMRSeeGJKozFC4gVqbNvnZC/ JhgCd5qsAtqr0OEAYRu3koPQ9+cHL4uRNZS9J27uZshkoH4/ X3ayvdoeyUE3YWcyuTkswynceRDw4BygQavICoswKj/9XZAZvRBbI8WuiznTMQZuGiccxghTGg== Received: from lax022.relay.arandomserver.com ([198.252.106.58]) by COL004-MC1F11.hotmail.com <http://col004-mc1f11.hotmail.com/> over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(7.5.7601.23143); Sun, 12 Jun 2016 12:00:15 -0700 Received: from lax203.hawkhost.com ([198.252.106.68]) by se003.arandomserver.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from <nome-announce-bounces@nomekennelclub.com>) id 1bCAcC-0005mK-IL; Sun, 12 Jun 2016 14:00:11 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nomekennelclub.com; s=default; h=Sender:List-Subscribe:List- Help:List-Post: List-Archive:List-Unsubscribe:List-Id:Content-Transfer- Encoding:Content-Type: MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:Reply-To:To:Subject:From:Cc:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent- Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Owner; bh=jDxrwQr0jmM9xViPdGyM4bH+/6rwqwLFUVYvxTlafm8=; b=u8TyeCVecKwnVNP0kCePP0Pnct XmAtx/ijufED+WEE6l444ssMce/LGKCBwpEcIN/3vBoK6dkCkh3JmivH0aA9HrZyrcelF o27GFKbV 1sZYQQDokwaGP4YHL4iEx0Si5AY8JCBkFgFh1BKIXUvlYq2M0CYpEO4nYcc5hUNIpArs=; Received: from [::1] (port=42021 helo=lax203.hawkhost.com) by lax203.hawkhost.com with esmtp (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from <nome-announce-bounces@nomekennelclub.com>) id 1bCAc7-000pSR-SI; Sun, 12 Jun 2016 12:00:03 -0700 From: nome-announce-request@nomekennelclub.com Subject: Nome-announce Digest, Vol 50, Issue 29 To: nome-announce@nomekennelclub.com Reply-To: nome-announce@nomekennelclub.com Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 12:00:01 -0700 Message-ID: < mailman.1.1465758001.197313.nome-announce_nomekennelclub.com@nomekennelclub.com
MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: nome-announce@nomekennelclub.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: <nome-announce.nomekennelclub.com> List-Unsubscribe: < http://nomekennelclub.com/mailman/options/nome-announce_nomekennelclub.com>, <mailto:nome-announce-request@nomekennelclub.com?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: < http://nomekennelclub.com/mailman/private/nome-announce_nomekennelclub.com/> List-Post: <mailto:nome-announce@nomekennelclub.com> List-Help: <mailto:nome-announce-request@nomekennelclub.com?subject=help> List-Subscribe: < http://nomekennelclub.com/mailman/listinfo/nome-announce_nomekennelclub.com
, <mailto:nome-announce-request@nomekennelclub.com?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: nome-announce-bounces@nomekennelclub.com Sender: "Nome-announce" <nome-announce-bounces@nomekennelclub.com> <snip> X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@se001.arandomserver.com X-Originating-IP: 198.252.106.68 X-SpamExperts-Domain: lax203.hawkhost.com X-SpamExperts-Username: relay Authentication-Results: arandomserver.com; auth=pass (login) smtp.auth= relay@lax203.hawkhost.com X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Class: ham X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Evidence: SB/global_tokens (0.000514464687739) X-Recommended-Action: accept Return-Path: nome-announce-bounces@nomekennelclub.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Jun 2016 19:00:15.0312 (UTC) FILETIME=[A789A500:01D1C4DC]
Send Nome-announce mailing list submissions to nome-announce@nomekennelclub.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://nomekennelclub.com/mailman/listinfo/nome-announce_nomekennelclub.com
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to nome-announce-request@nomekennelclub.com
You can reach the person managing the list at nome-announce-owner@nomekennelclub.com
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Nome-announce digest..."
AOL:
Subject: [NA] New/unused 2014 90hp Evinrude e-Rec for sale From: Roy Ashenfelter via Nome-announce <nome-announce@nomekennelclub.com> Date: 6/13/2016 3:54 AM To:
redacted@nomekennelclub.com Return-Path: <redacted-bounces@nomekennelclub.com> Received: from lax022.relay.arandomserver.com (lax022.relay.arandomserver.com [198.252.106.58]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mtaig-aae04.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTPS id BADDB700000AC; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 13:32:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lax203.hawkhost.com ([198.252.106.68]) by se003.arandomserver.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from < redacted-bounces@nomekennelclub.com>) id 1bCMi8-0000Z9-I7; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 02:55:07 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nomekennelclub.com; s=default; h=Sender:Reply-To:From:List-Subscribe: List-Help:List-Post:List- Archive:List-Unsubscribe:List-Id:Subject: MIME-Version:Content-Type: Message-ID:Date:To:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content- Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Owner; bh= ettEdnqvdTG8oky64nANVwAzq3F3zbAJua/5UgxiRqo=; b=Hic9rSbFnmuVJ1wEm8AjOnKfe7 tICDN+l7MmUPhfoxdTw1pJ6sFa/iaaCbkoLY9RfRX6VuysFdQAkknS1YfYaBeJ8sx+Qzu+94n0za7 c11eRkTNmKrgOGhhWwOJ2DfI3Xy6WsVlzXxTHGdq+zGJaBhhwwdGxCF4l/toN6Grn5es=; Received: from [::1] (port=53981 helo=lax203.hawkhost.com) by lax203.hawkhost.com with esmtp (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from <redacted-bounces@nomekennelclub.com>) id 1bCMi5-001XvS-1Z; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 00:55:01 -0700 Received: from se003.arandomserver.com ([198.252.106.34]:33778) by lax203.hawkhost.com with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from <redacted@live.com>) id 1bCMi2-001Xug-Jh for redacted@nomekennelclub.com; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 00:54:58 -0700 Received: from col004-omc2s12.hotmail.com ([65.55.34.86]) by se003.arandomserver.com with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from < redacted@live.com>) id 1bCMi1-0000V0-QL for redacted@nomekennelclub.com; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 02:54:58 -0500 Received: from NAM01-BN3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com <http://nam01-bn3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com/> ([65.55.34.72]) by COL004-OMC2S12.hotmail.com <http://col004-omc2s12.hotmail.com/> over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(7.5.7601.23008); Mon, 13 Jun 2016 00:54:56 -0700 Received: from BN3NAM01FT034.eop-nam01.prod.protection.outlook.com <http://bn3nam01ft034.eop-nam01.prod.protection.outlook.com/> (10.152.66.52) by BN3NAM01HT185.eop-nam01.prod.protection.outlook.com <http://bn3nam01ht185.eop-nam01.prod.protection.outlook.com/>(10.152.66.83) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.511.7; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 07:54:55 +0000 Received: from CY1PR18MB0425.namprd18.prod.outlook.com <http://cy1pr18mb0425.namprd18.prod.outlook.com/> (10.152.66.55) by BN3NAM01FT034.mail.protection.outlook.com <http://bn3nam01ft034.mail.protection.outlook.com/> (10.152.67.188) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.511.7 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 07:54:55 +0000 Received: from CY1PR18MB0425.namprd18.prod.outlook.com <http://cy1pr18mb0425.namprd18.prod.outlook.com/> ([10.163.255.11]) by CY1PR18MB0425.namprd18.prod.outlook.com <http://cy1pr18mb0425.namprd18.prod.outlook.com/> ([10.163.255.11]) with mapi id 15.01.0517.009; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 07:54:54 +0000 Thread-Topic: New/unused 2014 90hp Evinrude e-Rec for sale Thread-Index: AQHRxUjfIh70xOv6O0adnfRIVohryw== Message-ID: < CY1PR18MB0425675A26479DBDF071EF5FBD530@CY1PR18MB0425.namprd18.prod.outlook.com
Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes authentication-results: spf=softfail (sender IP is 25.152.66.55) smtp.mailfrom=live.com; nomekennelclub.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none; nomekennelclub.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=live.com; received-spf: SoftFail (protection.outlook.com: domain of transitioning live.com discourages use of 25.152.66.55 as permitted sender) x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [5FEgAoGqeTutVftgmNWn0YhnbzyW9Wzc] x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:25.152.66.55; IPV:NLI; CTRY:GB; EFV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(98900003); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BN3NAM01HT185; H: CY1PR18MB0425.namprd18.prod.outlook.com <http://cy1pr18mb0425.namprd18.prod.outlook.com/>; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: b29fd25c-3c17-4205-eaf6-08d3936001ee x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(1601124038)(5061506196)(5061507196)(1603103041)(1601125047); SRVR:BN3NAM01HT185; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(432015012)(102415321)(82015046); SRVR:BN3NAM01HT185; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:BN3NAM01HT185; x-forefront-prvs: 0972DEC1D9 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_003_CY1PR18MB0425675A26479DBDF071E F5FBD530CY1PR18MB0425namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: live.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 13 Jun 2016 07:54:54.6739 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN3NAM01HT185 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jun 2016 07:54:56.0953 (UTC) FILETIME=[E0C13290:01D1C548] Received-SPF: pass (se003.arandomserver.com: domain of live.com designates 65.55.34.86 as permitted sender) client-ip=65.55.34.86; redacted@live.com X-SPF-Result: se003.arandomserver.com: domain of live.com designates 65.55.34.86 as permitted sender X-Whitelisted: recipient X-DKIM-Status: none / / live.com / / / X-Filter-ID: s0sct1PQhAABKnZB5plbIUO9O0hq8gHByQcbEQYDfz8H4MYKpNk60PeoaRcwbjEjtCsRs7oA6pFb yJ/hU5wPEF2hX8tU8cKPSSrIVjAPEm2fvR1VsX14yI7g13GRr6oS0z6bhalFEM/pjPCQA+BAlsco s3Vc2QeJLRtPHzgNOTaqQRaVZHlYSRfYtIUJYPFolno1fCci4TX9vJFS9DZnGcUlTYKiCqrzBCim L8vArOL7YFTkK/rKJqMJjQzgnEai50DUVJ/AT8M7WktHsmaM2VyA2JiDuTGgcr89RmPEWZwREdgG 2f2Lo1NTxLTTXdsKPd0rEuGjFyZoidhtHm+WoSitAH2lQcnqPHV5XVrozsCNccwp+cA14F0ArmbJ KkZ/647lNwN4qOsSZg+fYhVZG34tGEMTMUrpJnq9b48rn8D2CgiB9STrurjoEfMSa0W6RLf6trUD TDf2G+yXm5Pa7szzR8BQQCGvZ2XoQqVvUzhmqjXjFdeMc1v0VDb9tVkfp5gtNQmDuN0F9zdGKZpQ CWlVqy5IjDukk0PV7kz7Xgfy4DHVHN49VHM7as5+LMjNQJtI1O2CdZ6bnYVutIcmjhTeL3uUOsw5 /CZ2mGeFjdXiJfCOUvyWH7/HBULF99YE X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@se001.arandomserver.com X-SpamExperts-Class: whitelisted X-SpamExperts-Evidence: recipient X-Recommended-Action: accept X-BeenThere: redacted@nomekennelclub.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: <redacted.nomekennelclub.com> List-Unsubscribe: <http://nomekennelclub.com/mailman/options/redacted_nomekennelclub.com>, redacted@nomekennelclub.com List-Archive: <http://nomekennelclub.com/mailman/private/redacted_nomekennelclub.com/> List-Post: <mailto:redacted@nomekennelclub.com> List-Help: <mailto:redacted@nomekennelclub.com?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://nomekennelclub.com/mailman/listinfo/redacted_nomekennelclub.com>, redacted@nomekennelclub.com Reply-To: Roy Ashenfelter <redacted@live.com> Errors-To: redacted-bounces@nomekennelclub.com Sender: "redacted" <redacted-bounces@nomekennelclub.com> X-Filter-ID: s0sct1PQhAABKnZB5plbIUo7H43CA5wLlglsDJgGpzkP07IPXvGOlNKYXgFfqszuLtbF6g6PRijQ ZLYUpfiJTofP944IrN6rQSJi6zdzkcrlG+cgB9mAODBSyFnquDJzODrXaaMaFc6t0SR5trB37FBM OVmUSoLDjxX0TQJ9zrTmNs+oBl1zjqKPRO <snip> X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@se001.arandomserver.com X-Originating-IP: 198.252.106.68 X-SpamExperts-Domain: lax203.hawkhost.com X-SpamExperts-Username: relay Authentication-Results: arandomserver.com; auth=pass (login) smtp.auth=relay@lax203.hawkhost.com X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.56) X-Recommended-Action: accept x-aol-global-disposition: S X-AOL-VSS-INFO: 5800.7501/110342 X-AOL-VSS-CODE: clean X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mtaig-aae04.mx.aol.com ; domain : nomekennelclub.com DKIM : pass Authentication-Results: mx.aol.com; spf=pass (aol.com: the domain nomekennelclub.com reports 198.252.106.58 as a permitted sender.) smtp.mailfrom=nomekennelclub.com; X-AOL-REROUTE: YES x-aol-sid: 3039ac1b015a5761913748c1 X-AOL-IP: 198.252.106.58 X-AOL-SPF: domain : nomekennelclub.com SPF : pass
None from Yahoo they've blocked us entirely.
So, anyone recommend more list-serv friendly hosts?
/jim
On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 1:39 PM, Jim Dory <james@dorydesign.com> wrote:
We have a community list-serv for local trade and community announcements with a subscriber base of nearly 2200 people. Our police and city use it for public service announcements, people use it for selling/trading virtually anything (seal oil, outboards, guns, blue berries, you name it) and is by subscription only.
If someone is not a member, they cannot post. When a member posts, it goes to all others subscribers.
Any suggestions on how to answer this:
Here is the threat (hopefully I've removed personal emails from it):
Hello,
These cross promotion posts from your mailing list will need to cease or we will not host you any further. We have mounting complaints from AOL, Yahoo and Hotmail with some of which are now blocking the server you're on specifically because of your mailings. This is not isolated to a single set of users complaining it's a large amount that is enough for these providers to take action. Here's an example of Hotmail complaining today:
X-HmXmrOriginalRecipient: < <tylerwcase@hotmail.com>snip> X-Reporter-IP: 72.169.153.180 X-Message-Guid: e33ffe03-30cf-11e6-80b9-00215ad73ee2 x-store-info:qAUQJzZ73IJCLUJ+0n7ZQ5Y+hDtA5T0pTzngeWExSOA+js5BQ3esJZEb/ hCqmGYMGDPlv0qhfifSNEBY0EeR7jdY3RHpNqJWr7fgFVdKgCT42ZLOh4B1Z k6HwMHyTEbaui0SFrS8NYUVpqQ8zI3RRBiLXYw949+B Authentication-Results: hotmail.com; spf=pass (sender IP is 198.252.106.58) smtp.mailfrom=nome-announce-bounces@nomekennelclub.com; dkim=pass header.d=nomekennelclub.com; x-hmca=pass header.id= nome-announce-bounces@nomekennelclub.com X-SID-PRA: nome-announce-bounces@nomekennelclub.com X-AUTH-Result: PASS X-SID-Result: PASS X-Message-Status: n:n X-Message-Delivery: Vj0xLjE7dXM9MDtsPTA7YT0wO0Q9MztHRD0zO1NDTD00 X-Message-Info: JfKzZGNUCEyn6uZ8X2pDbY1Het57KTCuLVm3gAtPdrrl2td44M/ wLebIq7P6BcKz/Tq4wTZhsfxggLRurC3yAI0ChdmMAEfJOhmwoMRSeeGJKozFC4gVqbNvnZC/ JhgCd5qsAtqr0OEAYRu3koPQ9+cHL4uRNZS9J27uZshkoH4/ X3ayvdoeyUE3YWcyuTkswynceRDw4BygQavICoswKj/9XZAZvRBbI8WuiznTMQZuGiccxghTG g== Received: from lax022.relay.arandomserver.com ([198.252.106.58]) by COL004-MC1F11.hotmail.com <http://col004-mc1f11.hotmail.com/> over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(7.5.7601.23143); Sun, 12 Jun 2016 12:00:15 -0700 Received: from lax203.hawkhost.com ([198.252.106.68]) by se003.arandomserver.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from <nome-announce-bounces@nomekennelclub.com>) id 1bCAcC-0005mK-IL; Sun, 12 Jun 2016 14:00:11 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nomekennelclub.com; s=default; h=Sender:List-Subscribe:List- Help:List-Post: List-Archive:List-Unsubscribe:List-Id:Content-Transfer- Encoding:Content-Type: MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:Reply-To:To:Subject:From:Cc:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent- Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Owner; bh=jDxrwQr0jmM9xViPdGyM4bH+/6rwqwLFUVYvxTlafm8=; b=u8TyeCVecKwnVNP0kCePP0Pnct XmAtx/ijufED+WEE6l444ssMce/LGKCBwpEcIN/3vBoK6dkCkh3JmivH0aA9HrZyrcelF o27GFKbV 1sZYQQDokwaGP4YHL4iEx0Si5AY8JCBkFgFh1BKIXUvlYq2M0CYpEO4nYcc5hUNIpArs=; Received: from [::1] (port=42021 helo=lax203.hawkhost.com) by lax203.hawkhost.com with esmtp (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from <nome-announce-bounces@nomekennelclub.com>) id 1bCAc7-000pSR-SI; Sun, 12 Jun 2016 12:00:03 -0700 From: nome-announce-request@nomekennelclub.com Subject: Nome-announce Digest, Vol 50, Issue 29 To: nome-announce@nomekennelclub.com Reply-To: nome-announce@nomekennelclub.com Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 12:00:01 -0700 Message-ID: < mailman.1.1465758001.197313.nome-announce_nomekennelclub.com@nomekennelclub.com
MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: nome-announce@nomekennelclub.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: <nome-announce.nomekennelclub.com> List-Unsubscribe: < http://nomekennelclub.com/mailman/options/nome-announce_nomekennelclub.com
, <mailto:nome-announce-request@nomekennelclub.com?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: < http://nomekennelclub.com/mailman/private/nome-announce_nomekennelclub.com/
List-Post: <mailto:nome-announce@nomekennelclub.com> List-Help: <mailto:nome-announce-request@nomekennelclub.com?subject=help> List-Subscribe: < http://nomekennelclub.com/mailman/listinfo/nome-announce_nomekennelclub.com
, <mailto:nome-announce-request@nomekennelclub.com?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: nome-announce-bounces@nomekennelclub.com Sender: "Nome-announce" <nome-announce-bounces@nomekennelclub.com> <snip> X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@se001.arandomserver.com X-Originating-IP: 198.252.106.68 X-SpamExperts-Domain: lax203.hawkhost.com X-SpamExperts-Username: relay Authentication-Results: arandomserver.com; auth=pass (login) smtp.auth= relay@lax203.hawkhost.com X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Class: ham X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Evidence: SB/global_tokens (0.000514464687739) X-Recommended-Action: accept Return-Path: nome-announce-bounces@nomekennelclub.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Jun 2016 19:00:15.0312 (UTC) FILETIME=[A789A500:01D1C4DC]
Send Nome-announce mailing list submissions to nome-announce@nomekennelclub.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://nomekennelclub.com/mailman/listinfo/nome-announce_nomekennelclub.com
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to nome-announce-request@nomekennelclub.com
You can reach the person managing the list at nome-announce-owner@nomekennelclub.com
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Nome-announce digest..."
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Subject: [NA] New/unused 2014 90hp Evinrude e-Rec for sale From: Roy Ashenfelter via Nome-announce <nome-announce@nomekennelclub.com> Date: 6/13/2016 3:54 AM To:
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None from Yahoo they've blocked us entirely.
On 06/16/2016 04:04 PM, Jim Dory wrote:
So, anyone recommend more list-serv friendly hosts?
If you're looking for listserv(r), you're in the wrong place. See <https://wiki.list.org/DOC/Mailman%20is%20not%20Listserv>.
To address your actual issue, the problem is your list members are reporting list mail to their ISPs as spam. You MAY be able to address this by education. You need to ensure that no one is added to the list without opt-in and you need to remind members that if they don't want list mail, their recourse should be to unsubscribe, and that reporting some mail as spam will not result in selective filtering of some mail or action against the posters of mail they don't like, it will onlt result in all list mail being blocked for everyone.
You may be able to negotiate with your host over measures you can take, but the main thing is to train users not to click the 'spam' button and to give them easy ways to unsubscribe and to complain to you.
If you convince your host you are trying, they may understand, but they are stuck - your user's spam reports are giving your server's IP a bad reputation and causing all your mail and, if it's a shared host, other customer's mail too to be blocked by various ISPs. The host has to convince those ISPs that they are doing something about this.
In the long run, just switching hosts will not solve this problem if you can't convince your users not to report mail from a list they signed up for as spam.
You might try adding a msg_header and digest_header[1] with a "you are receiving this mail because you subscribed to ... To unsubscribe, ... Please don't report this as spam ..." type of message.
[1] Depending on your list's content filtering, and your user's MUAs, *_header may be problematic and editing *_footer may be better. See <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030707>.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
I was using the term List-serv as a generic term meaning a mailing list people subscribe to in order to receive messages sent by members via email. I am not aware, nor care to be aware, of technical definitions between Mailman and Listserv. I am a volunteer so those concerns are above my pay grade. BUT - I won't use the term "listserv" here again.
Thanks for your suggestions. I am taking all those steps - though I haven't added the header yet. I have sent several messages to users trying to educate them (and copied to the host's trouble ticket). The host gave me an example of a complaint received, so I tried contacting the subscriber to see if he was satisfied or not with the service and whether or not he wanted unsubscribed. I also asked if he would tell me how he was using his email client in regards our messages. No response. I did unsubscribe him, telling him he was welcome to resubscribe if it were in error.
I've started the feedback loops with AOL and Yahoo. Microsoft is problematic.
The footer of each message/digest gives clear instructions for unsubscribing.
thanks again, Jim
On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 9:27 AM, Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> wrote:
On 06/16/2016 04:04 PM, Jim Dory wrote:
So, anyone recommend more list-serv friendly hosts?
If you're looking for listserv(r), you're in the wrong place. See <https://wiki.list.org/DOC/Mailman%20is%20not%20Listserv>.
To address your actual issue, the problem is your list members are reporting list mail to their ISPs as spam. You MAY be able to address this by education. You need to ensure that no one is added to the list without opt-in and you need to remind members that if they don't want list mail, their recourse should be to unsubscribe, and that reporting some mail as spam will not result in selective filtering of some mail or action against the posters of mail they don't like, it will onlt result in all list mail being blocked for everyone.
You may be able to negotiate with your host over measures you can take, but the main thing is to train users not to click the 'spam' button and to give them easy ways to unsubscribe and to complain to you.
If you convince your host you are trying, they may understand, but they are stuck - your user's spam reports are giving your server's IP a bad reputation and causing all your mail and, if it's a shared host, other customer's mail too to be blocked by various ISPs. The host has to convince those ISPs that they are doing something about this.
In the long run, just switching hosts will not solve this problem if you can't convince your users not to report mail from a list they signed up for as spam.
You might try adding a msg_header and digest_header[1] with a "you are receiving this mail because you subscribed to ... To unsubscribe, ... Please don't report this as spam ..." type of message.
[1] Depending on your list's content filtering, and your user's MUAs, *_header may be problematic and editing *_footer may be better. See <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030707>.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/james%40dorydesign.com
On 06/17/2016 10:40 AM, Jim Dory wrote:
I was using the term List-serv as a generic term meaning a mailing list people subscribe to in order to receive messages sent by members via email.
I understand that and that is exactly the usage I object to. I understand I'm tilting at windmills and that I've long since lost this battle, and I'm in no way trying to protect Eric Thomas' trademark, but it annoys me to see Mailman conflated with Listserv because Listserv is a proprietary competing product and I think Mailman and its community are a better alternative.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
I agree with Mark on the abuse of the term (as well as the quality of product :-)) I correct this EVERYTIME I meet this abuse. earned me a reputation of a pedant, but the abuse has fallen off to nil.
A.
On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 1:34 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> wrote:
On 06/17/2016 10:40 AM, Jim Dory wrote:
I was using the term List-serv as a generic term meaning a mailing list people subscribe to in order to receive messages sent by members via email.
I understand that and that is exactly the usage I object to. I understand I'm tilting at windmills and that I've long since lost this battle, and I'm in no way trying to protect Eric Thomas' trademark, but it annoys me to see Mailman conflated with Listserv because Listserv is a proprietary competing product and I think Mailman and its community are a better alternative.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/doar9999%40yahoo.com
No need for everyone to jump on this. Mark and I have already discussed it, and you can read that I won't use it again. cheers, JD
On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 1:04 PM, am <doar9999@yahoo.com> wrote:
I agree with Mark on the abuse of the term (as well as the quality of product :-)) I correct this EVERYTIME I meet this abuse. earned me a reputation of a pedant, but the abuse has fallen off to nil.
A.
On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 1:34 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> wrote:
On 06/17/2016 10:40 AM, Jim Dory wrote:
I was using the term List-serv as a generic term meaning a mailing list people subscribe to in order to receive messages sent by members via email.
I understand that and that is exactly the usage I object to. I understand I'm tilting at windmills and that I've long since lost this battle, and I'm in no way trying to protect Eric Thomas' trademark, but it annoys me to see Mailman conflated with Listserv because Listserv is a proprietary competing product and I think Mailman and its community are a better alternative.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/doar9999%40yahoo.com
So, anyone recommend more list-serv friendly hosts?
/jim
On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 1:39 PM, Jim Dory <james@dorydesign.com> wrote:
We have a community list-serv for local trade and community announcements with a subscriber base of nearly 2200 people. Our police and city use it for public service announcements, people use it for selling/trading virtually anything (seal oil, outboards, guns, blue berries, you name it) and is by subscription only.
If someone is not a member, they cannot post. When a member posts, it goes to all others subscribers.
Any suggestions on how to answer this:
I run a community mailing list of 6400 subscribers on Pair, and do not have this issue. I do have a number of filters setup to catch most of
On 6/16/16 7:04 PM, Jim Dory wrote: the spam that tries to get to the list. I have also used ezoshosting for some smaller lists.
Is your current hosting provider directly supporting mailman, or is it just that they let your run it? A hosting service that doesn't specifically understand mailing list is much more likely to get you in trouble.
Also, how responsive are you to subscribers asking for help unsubscribing? If your list is anything like mine, a number of subscribers get help from a friend to get on the list, and then when they want off, they don't know what to do. If they don't know you will be helpful in getting them off the list, some will "unsubscribe" by marking the list as spam and thus they don't see the messages, and you will get into this sort of trouble.
-- Richard Damon
Hello Jim,
I'm not sure what they mean by cross promotion, but you may want to separate your list into a public service announcement list and one for sales/trades/etc.
I can help you find alternate hosting if you like. Feel free to contact me off list.
Jim Ohlstein
On Jun 16, 2016, at 5:39 PM, Jim Dory <james@dorydesign.com> wrote:
We have a community list-serv for local trade and community announcements with a subscriber base of nearly 2200 people. Our police and city use it for public service announcements, people use it for selling/trading virtually anything (seal oil, outboards, guns, blue berries, you name it) and is by subscription only.
If someone is not a member, they cannot post. When a member posts, it goes to all others subscribers.
Any suggestions on how to answer this:
Here is the threat (hopefully I've removed personal emails from it):
Hello,
These cross promotion posts from your mailing list will need to cease or we will not host you any further. We have mounting complaints from AOL, Yahoo and Hotmail with some of which are now blocking the server you're on specifically because of your mailings. This is not isolated to a single set of users complaining it's a large amount that is enough for these providers to take action. Here's an example of Hotmail complaining today:
X-HmXmrOriginalRecipient: < <tylerwcase@hotmail.com>snip> X-Reporter-IP: 72.169.153.180 X-Message-Guid: e33ffe03-30cf-11e6-80b9-00215ad73ee2 x-store-info:qAUQJzZ73IJCLUJ+0n7ZQ5Y+hDtA5T0pTzngeWExSOA+js5BQ3esJZEb/ hCqmGYMGDPlv0qhfifSNEBY0EeR7jdY3RHpNqJWr7fgFVdKgCT42ZLOh4B1Z k6HwMHyTEbaui0SFrS8NYUVpqQ8zI3RRBiLXYw949+B Authentication-Results: hotmail.com; spf=pass (sender IP is 198.252.106.58) smtp.mailfrom=nome-announce-bounces@nomekennelclub.com; dkim=pass header.d= nomekennelclub.com; x-hmca=pass header.id= nome-announce-bounces@nomekennelclub.com X-SID-PRA: nome-announce-bounces@nomekennelclub.com X-AUTH-Result: PASS X-SID-Result: PASS X-Message-Status: n:n X-Message-Delivery: Vj0xLjE7dXM9MDtsPTA7YT0wO0Q9MztHRD0zO1NDTD00 X-Message-Info: JfKzZGNUCEyn6uZ8X2pDbY1Het57KTCuLVm3gAtPdrrl2td44M/ wLebIq7P6BcKz/Tq4wTZhsfxggLRurC3yAI0ChdmMAEfJOhmwoMRSeeGJKozFC4gVqbNvnZC/ JhgCd5qsAtqr0OEAYRu3koPQ9+cHL4uRNZS9J27uZshkoH4/ X3ayvdoeyUE3YWcyuTkswynceRDw4BygQavICoswKj/9XZAZvRBbI8WuiznTMQZuGiccxghTGg== Received: from lax022.relay.arandomserver.com ([198.252.106.58]) by COL004-MC1F11.hotmail.com <http://col004-mc1f11.hotmail.com/> over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(7.5.7601.23143); Sun, 12 Jun 2016 12:00:15 -0700 Received: from lax203.hawkhost.com ([198.252.106.68]) by se003.arandomserver.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from <nome-announce-bounces@nomekennelclub.com>) id 1bCAcC-0005mK-IL; Sun, 12 Jun 2016 14:00:11 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nomekennelclub.com; s=default; h=Sender:List-Subscribe:List- Help:List-Post: List-Archive:List-Unsubscribe:List-Id:Content-Transfer- Encoding:Content-Type: MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:Reply-To:To:Subject:From:Cc:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent- Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Owner; bh=jDxrwQr0jmM9xViPdGyM4bH+/6rwqwLFUVYvxTlafm8=; b=u8TyeCVecKwnVNP0kCePP0Pnct XmAtx/ijufED+WEE6l444ssMce/LGKCBwpEcIN/3vBoK6dkCkh3JmivH0aA9HrZyrcelF o27GFKbV 1sZYQQDokwaGP4YHL4iEx0Si5AY8JCBkFgFh1BKIXUvlYq2M0CYpEO4nYcc5hUNIpArs=; Received: from [::1] (port=42021 helo=lax203.hawkhost.com) by lax203.hawkhost.com with esmtp (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from <nome-announce-bounces@nomekennelclub.com>) id 1bCAc7-000pSR-SI; Sun, 12 Jun 2016 12:00:03 -0700 From: nome-announce-request@nomekennelclub.com Subject: Nome-announce Digest, Vol 50, Issue 29 To: nome-announce@nomekennelclub.com Reply-To: nome-announce@nomekennelclub.com Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 12:00:01 -0700 Message-ID: < mailman.1.1465758001.197313.nome-announce_nomekennelclub.com@nomekennelclub.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: nome-announce@nomekennelclub.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: <nome-announce.nomekennelclub.com> List-Unsubscribe: < http://nomekennelclub.com/mailman/options/nome-announce_nomekennelclub.com>, <mailto:nome-announce-request@nomekennelclub.com?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: < http://nomekennelclub.com/mailman/private/nome-announce_nomekennelclub.com/> List-Post: <mailto:nome-announce@nomekennelclub.com> List-Help: <mailto:nome-announce-request@nomekennelclub.com?subject=help> List-Subscribe: < http://nomekennelclub.com/mailman/listinfo/nome-announce_nomekennelclub.com
, <mailto:nome-announce-request@nomekennelclub.com?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: nome-announce-bounces@nomekennelclub.com Sender: "Nome-announce" <nome-announce-bounces@nomekennelclub.com> <snip> X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@se001.arandomserver.com X-Originating-IP: 198.252.106.68 X-SpamExperts-Domain: lax203.hawkhost.com X-SpamExperts-Username: relay Authentication-Results: arandomserver.com; auth=pass (login) smtp.auth= relay@lax203.hawkhost.com X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Class: ham X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Evidence: SB/global_tokens (0.000514464687739) X-Recommended-Action: accept Return-Path: nome-announce-bounces@nomekennelclub.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Jun 2016 19:00:15.0312 (UTC) FILETIME=[A789A500:01D1C4DC]
Send Nome-announce mailing list submissions to nome-announce@nomekennelclub.com
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AOL:
Subject: [NA] New/unused 2014 90hp Evinrude e-Rec for sale From: Roy Ashenfelter via Nome-announce <nome-announce@nomekennelclub.com> Date: 6/13/2016 3:54 AM To:
redacted@nomekennelclub.com Return-Path: <redacted-bounces@nomekennelclub.com> Received: from lax022.relay.arandomserver.com (lax022.relay.arandomserver.com [198.252.106.58]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mtaig-aae04.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTPS id BADDB700000AC; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 13:32:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lax203.hawkhost.com ([198.252.106.68]) by se003.arandomserver.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from < redacted-bounces@nomekennelclub.com>) id 1bCMi8-0000Z9-I7; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 02:55:07 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nomekennelclub.com; s=default; h=Sender:Reply-To:From:List-Subscribe: List-Help:List-Post:List- Archive:List-Unsubscribe:List-Id:Subject: MIME-Version:Content-Type: Message-ID:Date:To:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content- Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Owner; bh= ettEdnqvdTG8oky64nANVwAzq3F3zbAJua/5UgxiRqo=; b=Hic9rSbFnmuVJ1wEm8AjOnKfe7 tICDN+l7MmUPhfoxdTw1pJ6sFa/iaaCbkoLY9RfRX6VuysFdQAkknS1YfYaBeJ8sx+Qzu+94n0za7 c11eRkTNmKrgOGhhWwOJ2DfI3Xy6WsVlzXxTHGdq+zGJaBhhwwdGxCF4l/toN6Grn5es=; Received: from [::1] (port=53981 helo=lax203.hawkhost.com) by lax203.hawkhost.com with esmtp (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from <redacted-bounces@nomekennelclub.com>) id 1bCMi5-001XvS-1Z; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 00:55:01 -0700 Received: from se003.arandomserver.com ([198.252.106.34]:33778) by lax203.hawkhost.com with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from <redacted@live.com>) id 1bCMi2-001Xug-Jh for redacted@nomekennelclub.com; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 00:54:58 -0700 Received: from col004-omc2s12.hotmail.com ([65.55.34.86]) by se003.arandomserver.com with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from < redacted@live.com>) id 1bCMi1-0000V0-QL for redacted@nomekennelclub.com; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 02:54:58 -0500 Received: from NAM01-BN3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com <http://nam01-bn3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com/> ([65.55.34.72]) by COL004-OMC2S12.hotmail.com <http://col004-omc2s12.hotmail.com/> over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(7.5.7601.23008); Mon, 13 Jun 2016 00:54:56 -0700 Received: from BN3NAM01FT034.eop-nam01.prod.protection.outlook.com <http://bn3nam01ft034.eop-nam01.prod.protection.outlook.com/> (10.152.66.52) by BN3NAM01HT185.eop-nam01.prod.protection.outlook.com <http://bn3nam01ht185.eop-nam01.prod.protection.outlook.com/>(10.152.66.83) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.511.7; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 07:54:55 +0000 Received: from CY1PR18MB0425.namprd18.prod.outlook.com <http://cy1pr18mb0425.namprd18.prod.outlook.com/> (10.152.66.55) by BN3NAM01FT034.mail.protection.outlook.com <http://bn3nam01ft034.mail.protection.outlook.com/> (10.152.67.188) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.511.7 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 07:54:55 +0000 Received: from CY1PR18MB0425.namprd18.prod.outlook.com <http://cy1pr18mb0425.namprd18.prod.outlook.com/> ([10.163.255.11]) by CY1PR18MB0425.namprd18.prod.outlook.com <http://cy1pr18mb0425.namprd18.prod.outlook.com/> ([10.163.255.11]) with mapi id 15.01.0517.009; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 07:54:54 +0000 Thread-Topic: New/unused 2014 90hp Evinrude e-Rec for sale Thread-Index: AQHRxUjfIh70xOv6O0adnfRIVohryw== Message-ID: < CY1PR18MB0425675A26479DBDF071EF5FBD530@CY1PR18MB0425.namprd18.prod.outlook.com Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes authentication-results: spf=softfail (sender IP is 25.152.66.55) smtp.mailfrom=live.com; nomekennelclub.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none; nomekennelclub.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=live.com; received-spf: SoftFail (protection.outlook.com: domain of transitioning live.com discourages use of 25.152.66.55 as permitted sender) x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [5FEgAoGqeTutVftgmNWn0YhnbzyW9Wzc] x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:25.152.66.55; IPV:NLI; CTRY:GB; EFV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(98900003); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BN3NAM01HT185; H: CY1PR18MB0425.namprd18.prod.outlook.com <http://cy1pr18mb0425.namprd18.prod.outlook.com/>; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: b29fd25c-3c17-4205-eaf6-08d3936001ee x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(1601124038)(5061506196)(5061507196)(1603103041)(1601125047); SRVR:BN3NAM01HT185; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(432015012)(102415321)(82015046); SRVR:BN3NAM01HT185; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:BN3NAM01HT185; x-forefront-prvs: 0972DEC1D9 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_003_CY1PR18MB0425675A26479DBDF071E F5FBD530CY1PR18MB0425namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: live.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 13 Jun 2016 07:54:54.6739 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN3NAM01HT185 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jun 2016 07:54:56.0953 (UTC) FILETIME=[E0C13290:01D1C548] Received-SPF: pass (se003.arandomserver.com: domain of live.com designates 65.55.34.86 as permitted sender) client-ip=65.55.34.86; redacted@live.com X-SPF-Result: se003.arandomserver.com: domain of live.com designates 65.55.34.86 as permitted sender X-Whitelisted: recipient X-DKIM-Status: none / / live.com / / / X-Filter-ID: s0sct1PQhAABKnZB5plbIUO9O0hq8gHByQcbEQYDfz8H4MYKpNk60PeoaRcwbjEjtCsRs7oA6pFb yJ/hU5wPEF2hX8tU8cKPSSrIVjAPEm2fvR1VsX14yI7g13GRr6oS0z6bhalFEM/pjPCQA+BAlsco s3Vc2QeJLRtPHzgNOTaqQRaVZHlYSRfYtIUJYPFolno1fCci4TX9vJFS9DZnGcUlTYKiCqrzBCim L8vArOL7YFTkK/rKJqMJjQzgnEai50DUVJ/AT8M7WktHsmaM2VyA2JiDuTGgcr89RmPEWZwREdgG 2f2Lo1NTxLTTXdsKPd0rEuGjFyZoidhtHm+WoSitAH2lQcnqPHV5XVrozsCNccwp+cA14F0ArmbJ KkZ/647lNwN4qOsSZg+fYhVZG34tGEMTMUrpJnq9b48rn8D2CgiB9STrurjoEfMSa0W6RLf6trUD TDf2G+yXm5Pa7szzR8BQQCGvZ2XoQqVvUzhmqjXjFdeMc1v0VDb9tVkfp5gtNQmDuN0F9zdGKZpQ CWlVqy5IjDukk0PV7kz7Xgfy4DHVHN49VHM7as5+LMjNQJtI1O2CdZ6bnYVutIcmjhTeL3uUOsw5 /CZ2mGeFjdXiJfCOUvyWH7/HBULF99YE X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@se001.arandomserver.com X-SpamExperts-Class: whitelisted X-SpamExperts-Evidence: recipient X-Recommended-Action: accept X-BeenThere: redacted@nomekennelclub.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: <redacted.nomekennelclub.com> List-Unsubscribe: <http://nomekennelclub.com/mailman/options/redacted_nomekennelclub.com>, redacted@nomekennelclub.com List-Archive: <http://nomekennelclub.com/mailman/private/redacted_nomekennelclub.com/> List-Post: <mailto:redacted@nomekennelclub.com> List-Help: <mailto:redacted@nomekennelclub.com?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://nomekennelclub.com/mailman/listinfo/redacted_nomekennelclub.com>, redacted@nomekennelclub.com Reply-To: Roy Ashenfelter <redacted@live.com> Errors-To: redacted-bounces@nomekennelclub.com Sender: "redacted" <redacted-bounces@nomekennelclub.com> X-Filter-ID: s0sct1PQhAABKnZB5plbIUo7H43CA5wLlglsDJgGpzkP07IPXvGOlNKYXgFfqszuLtbF6g6PRijQ ZLYUpfiJTofP944IrN6rQSJi6zdzkcrlG+cgB9mAODBSyFnquDJzODrXaaMaFc6t0SR5trB37FBM OVmUSoLDjxX0TQJ9zrTmNs+oBl1zjqKPRO <snip> X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@se001.arandomserver.com X-Originating-IP: 198.252.106.68 X-SpamExperts-Domain: lax203.hawkhost.com X-SpamExperts-Username: relay Authentication-Results: arandomserver.com; auth=pass (login) smtp.auth=relay@lax203.hawkhost.com X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.56) X-Recommended-Action: accept x-aol-global-disposition: S X-AOL-VSS-INFO: 5800.7501/110342 X-AOL-VSS-CODE: clean X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mtaig-aae04.mx.aol.com ; domain : nomekennelclub.com DKIM : pass Authentication-Results: mx.aol.com; spf=pass (aol.com: the domain nomekennelclub.com reports 198.252.106.58 as a permitted sender.) smtp.mailfrom=nomekennelclub.com; X-AOL-REROUTE: YES x-aol-sid: 3039ac1b015a5761913748c1 X-AOL-IP: 198.252.106.58 X-AOL-SPF: domain : nomekennelclub.com SPF : pass
None from Yahoo they've blocked us entirely.
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jim%40ohlste.in
I'll second the suggestion that you split the list. I'll also suggest that you do *not* subscribe anyone to the split-off instance: you should make them go through a COI (confirmed opt-in) process AND you should make certain that you retain all records of that as long as the list exists. ("records" being the Mailman logs and copies of any correspondence.)
But let me make a general comment about this problem -- which stems from companies like AOL and Yahoo delegating control of part of the anti-spam process to their users.
That's incredibly stupid. It's off-the-scale idiotic. It flies in the face of everything we've learned about spam in the past several decades.
Consider: if users, en masse, could reliably distinguish spam from non-spam, would the spam problem be as bad as it is?
No. It would not. It would only be a tiny fraction of its current scale.
But users have spent the past several decade proving, beyond any possible argument, that they are absolutely horrible at this task. So delegating it to them is not only lazy, it's insane.
To be clear: yes, users should be able to *report* suspected spam. That's why everyone should have an abuse@ address per RFC 2142 and decades of best practices. A user who's capable of remembering that, and who's capable of forwarding spam to it with full headers, is a user at least worth paying attention to. (And of course the local admin/postmaster/abuse/whatever team should read and analyze every such message: that's mail system admin 101.) But a user who blindly hits the spam button for any message they don't like or don't find useful or don't agree with or anything else is worse than useless: they're actively degrading the process.
Dave Crocker put it quite well when he said:
The best model to invoke, with respect to the idea of recruiting
end users to be active participants in abuse detection or
prevention is mostly:
Don't.Unfortunately, the AOLs and Yahoos of the world are deaf to this.
And as a result of that, I have no doubt whatsoever that many of your non-spam messages are being flagged as spam by users at those operations (and elsewhere) despite the fact that they're on-topic for a mailing list that they signed up for.
I've found it necessary to use VERP and similar techniques to identify the specific individuals responsible for this abuse and to either (a) unsubscribe them and/or (b) ban them. This isn't a panacea, but it does help cut down on the complaint rate and thus the spurious blacklisting.
---rsk
Thank you Rich,
I do not subscribe anyone without making them first go through the subscribe process. The problem we're having lately is the ISP's are not passing on the confirmation email, so in a couple cases lately, after confirming the user tried the process (by their word is all I got) I do subscribe them.
Unfortunately I don't have access to the logs nor VERP settings.
thx, Jim
On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 9:02 AM, Rich Kulawiec <rsk@gsp.org> wrote:
I'll second the suggestion that you split the list. I'll also suggest that you do *not* subscribe anyone to the split-off instance: you should make them go through a COI (confirmed opt-in) process AND you should make certain that you retain all records of that as long as the list exists. ("records" being the Mailman logs and copies of any correspondence.)
But let me make a general comment about this problem -- which stems from companies like AOL and Yahoo delegating control of part of the anti-spam process to their users.
That's incredibly stupid. It's off-the-scale idiotic. It flies in the face of everything we've learned about spam in the past several decades.
Consider: if users, en masse, could reliably distinguish spam from non-spam, would the spam problem be as bad as it is?
No. It would not. It would only be a tiny fraction of its current scale.
But users have spent the past several decade proving, beyond any possible argument, that they are absolutely horrible at this task. So delegating it to them is not only lazy, it's insane.
To be clear: yes, users should be able to *report* suspected spam. That's why everyone should have an abuse@ address per RFC 2142 and decades of best practices. A user who's capable of remembering that, and who's capable of forwarding spam to it with full headers, is a user at least worth paying attention to. (And of course the local admin/postmaster/abuse/whatever team should read and analyze every such message: that's mail system admin 101.) But a user who blindly hits the spam button for any message they don't like or don't find useful or don't agree with or anything else is worse than useless: they're actively degrading the process.
Dave Crocker put it quite well when he said:
The best model to invoke, with respect to the idea of recruiting end users to be active participants in abuse detection or prevention is mostly: Don't.Unfortunately, the AOLs and Yahoos of the world are deaf to this.
And as a result of that, I have no doubt whatsoever that many of your non-spam messages are being flagged as spam by users at those operations (and elsewhere) despite the fact that they're on-topic for a mailing list that they signed up for.
I've found it necessary to use VERP and similar techniques to identify the specific individuals responsible for this abuse and to either (a) unsubscribe them and/or (b) ban them. This isn't a panacea, but it does help cut down on the complaint rate and thus the spurious blacklisting.
---rsk
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/james%40dorydesign.com
Hi,
I would work with the provider in this situation. In my case I run several lists which are all opt-in, but people click on the report as spam button in Yahoo and AOL, causing issues. I have an agreement with the hosting provider who run the network that if they get any complaints from AOL or Hotmail that come through this route, that they forward them onto me and I unsubscribe them from the list. With AOL it is difficult as they remove the original email address who is complaining, Hotmail is OK and now Yahoo reports get sent to me directly.
I send the list traffic through specific servers so that it doesn't affect anything else.
Andrew.
On 06/17/2016 01:21 PM, Andrew Hodgson wrote:
With AOL it is difficult as they remove the original email address who is complaining, Hotmail is OK and now Yahoo reports get sent to me directly.
AOL's redaction is both overkill and ineffective if you use VERP. I.e, with VERP, the envelope is from LISTNAME-bounces+screenname=aol.com@your.host. This appears in a Sender: and Errors-To: header and the delivery agent's Return-Path: header. In all three cases, AOL 'redacts' this by changing LISTNAME-bounces+screenname=aol.com@your.host to redacted-bounces+screenname=aol.com@your.host. Here are partial headers from an AOL feedback report. All addresses are unchanged from AOL's report except I changed the AOL screen name in the VERPed headers to xxxxx, and deleted the From: address.
Return-Path: <redacted-bounces+xxxxx=aol.com@python.org> Received: from mail.python.org (mail.python.org [188.166.95.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mtaig-mca01.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTPS id 876CD700000AA for <redacted>; Sat, 21 May 2016 16:51:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.python.org (mail1.ams1.psf.io [127.0.0.1]) by mail.python.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3rBxmv4BcRzFqPm for <redacted>; Sat, 21 May 2016 16:51:43 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: ... X-Original-To: redacted@python.org Delivered-To: redacted@mail.python.org Received: from mail.python.org (mail1.ams1.psf.io [127.0.0.1]) by mail.python.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3rBxmP4lrNzFqPm for <redacted@python.org>; Sat, 21 May 2016 16:51:17 -0400 (EDT) ... Received: from mail1.ams1.psf.io (HELO mail.python.org) (127.0.0.1) by mail.python.org with SMTP; 21 May 2016 16:51:17 -0400 Received: from avasout03.plus.net (avasout03.plus.net [84.93.230.244]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.python.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS for <redacted@python.org>; Sat, 21 May 2016 16:51:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.63] ([80.189.231.201]) by avasout03 with smtp id x8o91s0094MNSaw018oAUk; Sat, 21 May 2016 21:48:11 +0100 X-CM-Score: 0.00 X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.1 cv=KLCndwxo c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=2lUcMO59U90xkKzxSzK6mw==:117 a=2lUcMO59U90xkKzxSzK6mw==:17 a=L9H7d07YOLsA:10 a=9cW_t1CCXrUA:10 a=s5jvgZ67dGcA:10 a=N659UExz7-8A:10 a=sAxD9uHJ85yeiWqiGbQA:9 a=pILNOxqGKmIA:10 Subject: Re: for / while else doesn't make sense To: redacted@python.org References: <CAHJ7fxhOeKFbu3=Jso=wgpBnH9Opr_J_6SHLDO+KtAqVFeGHnA@mail.gmail.com> redacted@python.org redacted@news.astraweb.com redacted@wintry.unequivocal.co.uk redacted@news.astraweb.com redacted@lucidity.plus.com redacted@python.org redacted@news.astraweb.com From: ... Message-ID: <5740C989.4070408@lucidity.plus.com> Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 21:48:09 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <redacted@news.astraweb.com> X-BeenThere: redacted@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language <redacted.python.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/redacted>, redacted@python.org List-Archive: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/redacted/> List-Post: <mailto:redacted@python.org> List-Help: <mailto:redacted@python.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/redacted>, redacted@python.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Errors-To: redacted-bounces+xxxxx=aol.com@python.org Sender: "redacted" <redacted-bounces+xxxxx=aol.com@python.org>
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
I had a customer with that problem. We ended up using individual emails and adding the email address to the footer. I don't remember the field, something user or user- something. I had a program to scan those reports for the tag and provide the list of addresses to the list manager. I think I ran it out of cron daily to scan the Maildir where those bounces/complaints ended up.
I had the list manager for those lists change to individual emails so that the email address could be added to the footer/signature as AOL and others seemed to never strip that part off. AOL redacted the headers making them useless for determining the address to remove.
On 6/17/2016 4:21 PM, Andrew Hodgson wrote:
Hi,
I would work with the provider in this situation. In my case I run several lists which are all opt-in, but people click on the report as spam button in Yahoo and AOL, causing issues. I have an agreement with the hosting provider who run the network that if they get any complaints from AOL or Hotmail that come through this route, that they forward them onto me and I unsubscribe them from the list. With AOL it is difficult as they remove the original email address who is complaining, Hotmail is OK and now Yahoo reports get sent to me directly.
I send the list traffic through specific servers so that it doesn't affect anything else.
Andrew.
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