[EuroPython] RE: Plone
Klaus Muller
kgmuller at xs4all.nl
Thu Oct 7 13:48:03 CEST 2004
Magnus is right on -- the EPC 2004 Plone site was very user-unfriendly and
non-intuitive for users. Even when I am an avid Python user and therefore
very positively inclined towards Plone or Zope, I could not care less
whether a business transaction is being executed in Plone, Scheme or
Fortran.
BTW, I have seen better Plone sites than the EPC one. Maybe the problem is
more on the design side than on the tool side.
May I suggest that the person doing the EPC 2005 site looks at other
conference sites and plagiarizes shamelessly from any good ones?
Anyhow, throw the current site away and start again. It sucks! If a good
site can be built in Plone and that is the preferred tool, ok, use Plone.
But don't be Plone-dogmatic!
Klaus Muller
> -----Original Message-----
> From: europython-bounces at python.org
> [mailto:europython-bounces at python.org] On Behalf Of
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> Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 12:01 PM
> To: europython at python.org
> Subject: EuroPython Digest, Vol 15, Issue 6
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: EPC 2005: where and when? (Magnus Lycka)
> 2. Re: EPC 2005: where and when? (tom)
> 3. Re: Meeting at 17.00 instead of 18.30 plus a report
> (Harald Armin Massa)
> 4. Re: EPC 2005: where and when? (Dario Lopez-K?sten)
> 5. Re: Meeting at 17.00 instead of 18.30 plus a report
> (Dario Lopez-K?sten)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 18:56:18 +0200
> From: Magnus Lycka <magnus at thinkware.se>
> Subject: Re: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when?
> To: Dario Lopez-Kdsten <dario at ita.chalmers.se>, Laura Creighton
> <lac at strakt.com>
> Cc: bea at webwitches.com, "europython at python.org"
> <europython at python.org>
> Message-ID: <think001_41640bac2a098 at webmail.thinkware.se>
> Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=iso-8859-1
>
> > Laura Creighton wrote:
> > > But I think that everybody who worked on the conference
> last year is
> > > aware of how thoroughly unhappy and frustrated I was with
> Plone, and
> > > the Plonish way of doing things, which is why I want to
> provide an alternative.
>
> Dario replied:
> > sure, though I think the problem with that stance is that
> many others
> > were not unhappy.
>
> I am so far unimpressed by Plone. I think I just realized
> why, and also why there is this big gap in opinons about it.
> It seems to me that Plone is designed to make web site
> designers and administrators happy, and it seems that this
> happens at the expense of the visitors of the web site. Most
> Plone sites I see look reasonably good (although rather
> similar after a while) but provide poor navigation, often
> expose flaws (like links or searches leading to pages that
> doesn't seem to be intended for site visitors) and expose
> things on the pages that are irrelevant to normal site
> visitors and thus increase the cognitive load without adding value.
>
> I think it's important that things that are irrelevant to
> normal site visitors are not shown to normal site visitors.
> Is that possible with Plone? (I.e. hide the log in and join
> links for normal users, make sure that .)
>
> I also got the feeling that he site designers tried to use
> features of Plone that weren't at all ideal (or even
> intended) for the use it got. The main example was to use the
> login and editing features that are intended for Plone
> content providers for registration of conference attendees
> and speakers. To me it's really surprising (and poor design)
> to mix web site data with conference business data, but the
> foremost problem was that registration was a lot more
> confusing than it ought to be. Plone developement reminds me
> of application development in MS Excel, and that is not in
> Plones favour...
>
> It seems to me that the EPC 2004 web site developers were too
> focused on using Plone features, and too little focused on
> building a web site that was easy for a visitor to use, or
> perhaps they were a little near sighted, and saw things too
> much with plony eyes...
>
> I think the site felt complicated and difficult to navigate.
> It's really a small site, and only a few pages are needed.
> I'm not sure the 2004 site provided useful new functionality
> compared to the 2003 site, but it felt more confusing.
>
> I suspect that it would be best to use one tool to design the
> actual www.europython.org web site (maybe Plone if all that
> noise can be turned off), and a different tool (something
> like Quixote and some kind of SQL database perhaps) to build
> the web application for regstration of visitors and speakers
> etc. The web site obviously needs to be able to show the
> information entered by the speakers, but showing normal
> database content on a web site isn't exactly rocket science.
> (I'm just starting to write such services right now for a
> state agency, but unfortunately I have to stick with C++ :( )
>
> Plone might be a great site for large intranets and some
> applications, but my impression so far is that it's not
> suited for sites like www.europython.org, which must be easy
> to understand and use for people who only use it once or twice.
>
> --
> Magnus Lycka, Thinkware AB
> Eklovsvagen 146, S-443 50 Lerum, SWEDEN
> phone: int+46 70 582 80 65
> http://www.thinkware.se/ mailto:magnus at thinkware.se
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 19:29:52 +0200
> From: "tom" <tom at aragne.com>
> Subject: Re: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when?
> To: Dario Lopez-K?sten <dario at ita.chalmers.se>, "Laura
> Creighton"
> <lac at strakt.com>
> Cc: bea at webwitches.com, europython at python.org, lac at strakt.com
> Message-ID: <010301c4abca$1bc62350$807ba8c0 at simkin>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> > I want other people to see it first.
>
> I do hope so :-)
>
> >Perhaps they will hate it. I don't want to do this by fiat.
> But I think
> that everybody who worked on the conference
> > last year is aware of how thoroughly unhappy and frustrated
> I was with
> Plone,
> > and the Plonish way of doing things, which is why I want to
> provide an
> alternative.
>
> Why wasn't the first site a good solution ;-P
>
> Regards,
> Tom.
>
> PS. Sorry, I won't be able to be at the proposed IRC meeting
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 20:37:10 +0200
> From: Harald Armin Massa <ghum at gmx.net>
> Subject: Re: [EuroPython] Meeting at 17.00 instead of 18.30 plus a
> report
> To: "europython at python.org" <europython at python.org>
> Message-ID: <41643B56.6060109 at gmx.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I will propably not have internet access with IRC at that
> thursday 1700.
>
> My vote is for Gvtheborg in 2005.
>
> Harald
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 08:16:55 +0200
> From: Dario Lopez-K?sten <dario at ita.chalmers.se>
> Subject: Re: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when?
> To: Magnus Lycka <magnus at thinkware.se>
> Cc: bea at webwitches.com, "europython at python.org"
> <europython at python.org>, Laura Creighton <lac at strakt.com>
> Message-ID: <4164DF57.8000209 at ita.chalmers.se>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Magnus Lycka wrote:
> >>Laura Creighton wrote:
> >>
> >>>But I think that everybody who worked on the conference
> >>>last year is aware of how thoroughly unhappy and
> frustrated I was with Plone,
> >>>and the Plonish way of doing things, which is why I want
> to provide an alternative.
> >
> >
> > Dario replied:
> >
> >>sure, though I think the problem with that stance is that
> many others
> >>were not unhappy.
> >
> >
> > I am so far unimpressed by Plone. I think I just realized why, and
> > also why there is this big gap in opinons about it. It seems to me
> > that Plone is designed to make web site designers and administrators
> > happy, and it seems that this happens at the expense of the visitors
> > of the web site. Most Plone sites I see look reasonably
> good (although
> > rather similar after a while) but provide poor navigation,
> often expose
> > flaws (like links or searches leading to pages that doesn't
> seem to be
> > intended for site visitors) and expose things on the pages that are
> > irrelevant to normal site visitors and thus increase the
> cognitive load
> > without adding value.
> >
> > I think it's important that things that are irrelevant to
> normal site
> > visitors are not shown to normal site visitors. Is that
> possible with
> > Plone? (I.e. hide the log in and join links for normal
> users, make sure
> > that .)
>
> I am not going into a dicussion of whether Plone is aporpiate
> or not - I
> am totally uninterested in that. Suffice it to say that Plone
> has been
> successfully used all over the world, and that I myself have coded an
> application to manage Kerberos passwords using Oracle as the Catalog
> backend.
>
> Most of the complaints are about VISUAL LAYOUT of the site,
> but that is
> *so* much an opinion and
>
> > I also got the feeling that he site designers tried to use features
> > of Plone that weren't at all ideal (or even intended) for the use it
> > got. The main example was to use the login and editing features that
> > are intended for Plone content providers for registration
> of conference
> > attendees and speakers. To me it's really surprising (and
> poor design)
> > to mix web site data with conference business data, but the
> foremost
> > problem was that registration was a lot more confusing than
> it ought to
> > be. Plone developement reminds me of application
> development in MS Excel,
> > and that is not in Plones favour...
>
> Well, like I said - see above... The onoy positive thing
> related to the
> website issue so far is that we are actually talking about it NOW and
> not 2 weeks before the conference.
>
> It seems quite obvious that most people that have complaints
> about the
> site do not know plone or zope at all; I have also com tu udnerstand
> that using Zope-based software is, to my utter amazement, a
> politically
> controversial issue in the non-zope python world.
>
> I wonder how much of the Plone issues people have are b ased on that.
>
> Nevertheless, I applause any effort to improve the website,
> and I think
> this dicussion is an utterly pointless one. If Strakt has an
> alternative
> solution, then by all means use that.
>
> I have no comments for the rest of this letter, other than what I
> allready have said above.
>
> /dario - withdrawing.
>
> --
> -- -------------------------------------------------------------------
> Dario Lopez-Kdsten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 09:52:48 +0200
> From: Dario Lopez-K?sten <dario at ita.chalmers.se>
> Subject: Re: [EuroPython] Meeting at 17.00 instead of 18.30 plus a
> report
> To: Jacob Hall?n <jacob at strakt.com>
> Cc: europython at python.org
> Message-ID: <4164F5D0.1030406 at ita.chalmers.se>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Jacob Hallin wrote:
> > Since the incoming responses indicate that 17.00 is a much
> better time, the
> > meeting will be held then.
>
> Hello, I just found out that I need to go and pick up my youngest at
> school this aftenoon, so now I definitely know that I will
> not be able
> to attend to this meeting.
>
> /dario
>
> --
> -- -------------------------------------------------------------------
> Dario Lopez-Kdsten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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