[Mailman-Users] Custom Pages

Janice Boothe nursejanice at yahoo.com
Thu Jun 6 04:49:56 CEST 2013

--- On Wed, 6/5/13, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Custom Pages
To: "Janice Boothe" <nursejanice at yahoo.com>
Cc: "Mailman Users" <mailman-users at python.org>
Date: Wednesday, June 5, 2013, 6:27 PM

On 06/03/2013 04:12 PM, Janice Boothe wrote:
> --- On Mon, 6/3/13, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> On 06/03/2013 05:06 AM, Janice Boothe wrote:
>> You are assuming that a list owner is allowing/offering more than his native 
>> language.
> :No, I am not. I am saying that if his list's language is one whose new
> :template is untranslated in the new release, that page is broken for his
> :list.
> First thank you for continuing to discuss this with me.  As I either have siad or intended to, this is not a personal attack on you or anyone else, it is feedback...
> The templates should not have a thing to do with translations (IMHO) and even if they did it would be the list owner who elects to have custom pages to design his pages for all languages he offers.  You are mistakenly thinking I am asking you to do much more than what I am.

:You seem to be looking at this from the point of view of a list/site
:admin who wants to make custom templates for her list/site.

:My position however is that of a software developer/distributor who
:distributes a package that the majority of users expect to work "out of
:the box", regardless of which of the supported languages they use.

True to some extent.  However as a developer (IMHO) one ought to code so that the software is usable by all.  My coding convention is to allow end users to use the software without locking them into things like look and feel set to the way I personally like them.  Working out of the box and being able to customize the look and feel are absolutely not mutually exclusive.

>> Even if he were, it is on him to code his custom pages with 
>> the capabilities to #include the appropriate language set.

:No. He expects the package to work out of the box without requiring him
:to translate new templates into his language which is supposedly supported.

Both of these should be present.  Simply allowing a template or custom page does not preclude the use of a dynamic page.  I personally do not know how to do it in python, but it can be programmed so that after a test for a custom page is made, either the custom page (if it is present) is used or the default dynamic page is used if no custom page is present..

> :You are ignoring the majority of sites/admins/list owners who do not
> :customize their Mailman web UI.
> It is irrelevant discussion to those who chose to use the vanilla MM pages.

:No. It is exactly the point of the discussion. Vanilla pages should work
:in all supported languages. Introducing new templates at this point
:breaks those pages until they are translated.

Again you are thinking that allowing for a custom page precludes the use of a dynamic vanilla page.  It does not have to be an either/or situation. 

> But it all goes back to the fact that if someone wants custom pages they are the one responsible for writing them so that their languages are addressed.  The whole thing can be addressed by simply adding some sort of IF loop around the body of code that generates the dynamic pages that have no template customization.

:I'm not concerned about the users who will make their own customized,
:translated pages. I'm concerned about those who don't want to.

Therein is the rub.  This is (close to) the big issue that many have with Microsoft.  Their nazi programming practices boil down to 'you will use our software the way we think it should look and you will like it" in that they offer very little customization (think IE v. FF).  As programmers we ought to not be unconcerned with any of our end users.

> Simply test for the presence of the appropriate file name in the appropriate location. If it exists use that and if not proceed with the dynamic build.  I'd do it myself but to dig through the huge mass of code that the programmers already know and could easily modify would take someone such as myself (who knows nohting about what coding conventions are used etc) and extraordinary amount of time.

:And for someone such as me who has been said to know the Mailman 2.1
:code base better than anyone else, it is way more work than I am willing
:to do. I suppose I could make a template in which all the actual text
:was simply replacements from the current dynamically generated text.
:Then you couldn't customize the text, at least not directly, which
:semi-defeats the purpose of a template, but you could customize the HTML
:tags which might satisfy your requirement, but as I said, it's more than
:I (we're all unpaid volunteers, and I don't even have a day job) am
:willing to do.

:The Mailman 2.1 branch is not the future of Mailman. I'm just the rear
:guard holding things together until Mailman 3 is ready for prime time

> I'd enjoy looking into MM3 but the link I was provided is at the very least obscure and extremely difficult to figure anything about the project.  I looked there and absolutely have no idea in hell what is going on with the project, the status, the ETA, who is involved, who to contact about questions suggestions etc.  If there is a link that is a little more user friendly I would love to get it and get on board.

Try the wiki. Start here
<http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Web+Interface> and here

Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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