Drop Solaris, OpenSolaris, Illumos and OpenIndiana support in Python
Hi, I propose to drop the Solaris support in Python to reduce the Python maintenance burden: https://bugs.python.org/issue42173 I wrote a draft PR to show how much code could be removed (around 700 lines in 65 files): https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/23002/files In 2016, I asked if we still wanted to maintain the Solaris support in Python, because Solaris buildbots were failing for longer than 6 months and nobody was able to fix them. It was requested to find a core developer volunteer to fix Solaris issues and to set up a Solaris buildbot. https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/thread/NOT2RORSN... Four years later, nothing has happened. Moreover, in 2018, Oracle laid off the Solaris development engineering staff. There are around 25 open Python bugs specific to Solaris. I see 3 options: * Current best effort support (no change): changes only happen if a core dev volunteers to review and merge a change written by a contributor. * Schedule the removal in 2 Python releases (Python 3.12) and start to announce that Solaris support is going to be removed * Remove the Solaris code right now (my proposition): Solaris code will have to be maintained outside the official Python code base, as "downstream patches" Solaris has a few specific features visible at the Python level: select.devpoll, os.stat().st_fstype and stat.S_ISDOOR(). While it's unclear to me if Oracle still actively maintains Solaris (latest release in 2018, no major update since 2018), Illumos and OpenSolaris (variants or "forks") still seem to be active. In 2019, a Solaris blog post explains that Solaris 11.4 still uses Python 2.7 but plans to migrate to Python 3, and Python 3.4 is also available. These two Python versions are no longer supported. https://blogs.oracle.com/solaris/future-of-python-on-solaris The question is if the Python project has to maintain the Solaris specific code or if this code should now be maintained outside Python. What do you think? Should we wait 5 more years? Should we expect a company will offer to maintain the Solaris support? Is there a motivated core developer to fix Solaris issue? As I wrote, nothing has happened in the last 4 years... Victor -- Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
I agree, remove Solaris support. Nobody willing to contribute seems interested. -gps -- blame half the typos on my phone. On Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 2:50 PM Victor Stinner <vstinner@python.org> wrote:
Hi,
I propose to drop the Solaris support in Python to reduce the Python maintenance burden:
https://bugs.python.org/issue42173
I wrote a draft PR to show how much code could be removed (around 700 lines in 65 files):
https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/23002/files
In 2016, I asked if we still wanted to maintain the Solaris support in Python, because Solaris buildbots were failing for longer than 6 months and nobody was able to fix them. It was requested to find a core developer volunteer to fix Solaris issues and to set up a Solaris buildbot.
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/thread/NOT2RORSN...
Four years later, nothing has happened. Moreover, in 2018, Oracle laid off the Solaris development engineering staff. There are around 25 open Python bugs specific to Solaris.
I see 3 options:
* Current best effort support (no change): changes only happen if a core dev volunteers to review and merge a change written by a contributor.
* Schedule the removal in 2 Python releases (Python 3.12) and start to announce that Solaris support is going to be removed
* Remove the Solaris code right now (my proposition): Solaris code will have to be maintained outside the official Python code base, as "downstream patches"
Solaris has a few specific features visible at the Python level: select.devpoll, os.stat().st_fstype and stat.S_ISDOOR().
While it's unclear to me if Oracle still actively maintains Solaris (latest release in 2018, no major update since 2018), Illumos and OpenSolaris (variants or "forks") still seem to be active.
In 2019, a Solaris blog post explains that Solaris 11.4 still uses Python 2.7 but plans to migrate to Python 3, and Python 3.4 is also available. These two Python versions are no longer supported.
https://blogs.oracle.com/solaris/future-of-python-on-solaris
The question is if the Python project has to maintain the Solaris specific code or if this code should now be maintained outside Python.
What do you think? Should we wait 5 more years? Should we expect a company will offer to maintain the Solaris support? Is there a motivated core developer to fix Solaris issue? As I wrote, nothing has happened in the last 4 years...
Victor -- Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/VDD7NMED... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
On Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 6:32 PM Gregory P. Smith <greg@krypto.org> wrote:
I agree, remove Solaris support. Nobody willing to contribute seems interested.
*sniff* I spent a lot of professional time in front of SunOS and Solaris screens. But yes, I agree. It seems time to give Solaris the boot. Skip
+1 to remove support for Solaris going forward. 4 years is plenty of time to wait for someone to volunteer to maintain it, IMO. So my preference would be for option 3 to remove it now, but I wouldn't be opposed to option 2 either w/ deprecating support and waiting a couple versions to remove it. I'm only opposed to option 1, since it seems very likely that it will just continue to stagnate at this point. On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 5:49 PM Victor Stinner <vstinner@python.org> wrote:
Hi,
I propose to drop the Solaris support in Python to reduce the Python maintenance burden:
https://bugs.python.org/issue42173
I wrote a draft PR to show how much code could be removed (around 700 lines in 65 files):
https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/23002/files
In 2016, I asked if we still wanted to maintain the Solaris support in Python, because Solaris buildbots were failing for longer than 6 months and nobody was able to fix them. It was requested to find a core developer volunteer to fix Solaris issues and to set up a Solaris buildbot.
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/thread/NOT2RORSN...
Four years later, nothing has happened. Moreover, in 2018, Oracle laid off the Solaris development engineering staff. There are around 25 open Python bugs specific to Solaris.
I see 3 options:
* Current best effort support (no change): changes only happen if a core dev volunteers to review and merge a change written by a contributor.
* Schedule the removal in 2 Python releases (Python 3.12) and start to announce that Solaris support is going to be removed
* Remove the Solaris code right now (my proposition): Solaris code will have to be maintained outside the official Python code base, as "downstream patches"
Solaris has a few specific features visible at the Python level: select.devpoll, os.stat().st_fstype and stat.S_ISDOOR().
While it's unclear to me if Oracle still actively maintains Solaris (latest release in 2018, no major update since 2018), Illumos and OpenSolaris (variants or "forks") still seem to be active.
In 2019, a Solaris blog post explains that Solaris 11.4 still uses Python 2.7 but plans to migrate to Python 3, and Python 3.4 is also available. These two Python versions are no longer supported.
https://blogs.oracle.com/solaris/future-of-python-on-solaris
The question is if the Python project has to maintain the Solaris specific code or if this code should now be maintained outside Python.
What do you think? Should we wait 5 more years? Should we expect a company will offer to maintain the Solaris support? Is there a motivated core developer to fix Solaris issue? As I wrote, nothing has happened in the last 4 years...
Victor -- Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/VDD7NMED... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
29.10.20 23:43, Victor Stinner пише:
* Current best effort support (no change): changes only happen if a core dev volunteers to review and merge a change written by a contributor.
It is my preference. Several years ago I tested and fixed Python on OpenIndiana in virtual machine, but I was not enough motivated and the code gradually degrades.
* Schedule the removal in 2 Python releases (Python 3.12) and start to announce that Solaris support is going to be removed
* Remove the Solaris code right now (my proposition): Solaris code will have to be maintained outside the official Python code base, as "downstream patches"
It would make life of Illumos and OpenIndiana developers much harder, that can be seen hostile to open source community. It would make the code of CPython more rigid, virtually Linux-only with Windows and MacOS patches, and as a side effect can make harder porting it to other platforms. This is not great. If you want to remove platform specific code from CPython source, do you consider the idea of removing support of MacOS and maintain it as "downstream patches"?
On 30/10/2020 08.58, Serhiy Storchaka wrote:
It would make life of Illumos and OpenIndiana developers much harder, that can be seen hostile to open source community. It would make the code of CPython more rigid, virtually Linux-only with Windows and MacOS patches, and as a side effect can make harder porting it to other platforms. This is not great.
If you want to remove platform specific code from CPython source, do you consider the idea of removing support of MacOS and maintain it as "downstream patches"?
That's an unfair and polarizing comparison. You know as good as I that macOS is a major platform which is actively used and maintained by several core developers. I don't recall any core devs that maintain Solaris port. PEP-11 lists clear rules about platform support. As long as we don't have a core developer for Solaris support and stable build bots, I'm all in favor to remove the platforms. Christian
On 29 Oct 2020, at 22:43, Victor Stinner <vstinner@python.org> wrote:
Hi,
I propose to drop the Solaris support in Python to reduce the Python maintenance burden:
https://bugs.python.org/issue42173
I wrote a draft PR to show how much code could be removed (around 700 lines in 65 files):
A significant fraction of that is in comments and documentation. A number of the changes in documentation would be good to go in regardless of the resolution of this proposal.
In 2016, I asked if we still wanted to maintain the Solaris support in Python, because Solaris buildbots were failing for longer than 6 months and nobody was able to fix them. It was requested to find a core developer volunteer to fix Solaris issues and to set up a Solaris buildbot.
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/thread/NOT2RORSN...
Four years later, nothing has happened. Moreover, in 2018, Oracle laid off the Solaris development engineering staff. There are around 25 open Python bugs specific to Solaris.
As another data point: There is someone on BPO that files issues about Solaris on BPO, including PRs. It might be worthwhile to ask that person if they can provide a buildbot (while making clear that this results in the assumption that they’d look after Solaris port). If Solaris would get dropped I’d prefer option 2 Ronald — Twitter / micro.blog: @ronaldoussoren Blog: https://blog.ronaldoussoren.net/
Regarding having a Solaris buildbot: if someone provides a Solaris buildbot then the deal is that that someone or some other party must look after that buildbot and fix problems that appear in it in a timely manner. Broken buildbots stop releases and I don't want to be in a situation in which I need to halt a release because the Solaris buildbot is broken and there is no-one to fix it in time. In the past, we had to dealt with similar situations and not only is stressful but normally ends in me or Victor having to login in a buildbot for a platform that we are not experts on to try to fix it in time. On Fri, 30 Oct 2020, 09:29 Ronald Oussoren via Python-Dev, < python-dev@python.org> wrote:
On 29 Oct 2020, at 22:43, Victor Stinner <vstinner@python.org> wrote:
Hi,
I propose to drop the Solaris support in Python to reduce the Python maintenance burden:
https://bugs.python.org/issue42173
I wrote a draft PR to show how much code could be removed (around 700 lines in 65 files):
A significant fraction of that is in comments and documentation. A number of the changes in documentation would be good to go in regardless of the resolution of this proposal.
In 2016, I asked if we still wanted to maintain the Solaris support in Python, because Solaris buildbots were failing for longer than 6 months and nobody was able to fix them. It was requested to find a core developer volunteer to fix Solaris issues and to set up a Solaris buildbot.
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/thread/NOT2RORSN...
Four years later, nothing has happened. Moreover, in 2018, Oracle laid off the Solaris development engineering staff. There are around 25 open Python bugs specific to Solaris.
As another data point: There is someone on BPO that files issues about Solaris on BPO, including PRs. It might be worthwhile to ask that person if they can provide a buildbot (while making clear that this results in the assumption that they’d look after Solaris port).
If Solaris would get dropped I’d prefer option 2
Ronald —
Twitter / micro.blog: @ronaldoussoren Blog: https://blog.ronaldoussoren.net/
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On Fri, 30 Oct 2020 09:34:37 +0000 Pablo Galindo Salgado <pablogsal@gmail.com> wrote:
Regarding having a Solaris buildbot: if someone provides a Solaris buildbot then the deal is that that someone or some other party must look after that buildbot and fix problems that appear in it in a timely manner. Broken buildbots stop releases and I don't want to be in a situation in which I need to halt a release because the Solaris buildbot is broken and there is no-one to fix it in time.
In the past, we had to dealt with similar situations and not only is stressful but normally ends in me or Victor having to login in a buildbot for a platform that we are not experts on to try to fix it in time.
Seconded. Someone providing a buildbot for a fringe platform should also watch after regressions and be ready to submit patches when problems arise. Regards Antoine.
On 30 Oct 2020, at 10:34, Pablo Galindo Salgado <pablogsal@gmail.com> wrote:
Regarding having a Solaris buildbot: if someone provides a Solaris buildbot then the deal is that that someone or some other party must look after that buildbot and fix problems that appear in it in a timely manner. Broken buildbots stop releases and I don't want to be in a situation in which I need to halt a release because the Solaris buildbot is broken and there is no-one to fix it in time.
In the past, we had to dealt with similar situations and not only is stressful but normally ends in me or Victor having to login in a buildbot for a platform that we are not experts on to try to fix it in time.
I agree. That’s what I tried to write, its not just providing a buildbot but also making sure that it keeps working and stays green. Ronald — Twitter / micro.blog: @ronaldoussoren Blog: https://blog.ronaldoussoren.net/ <https://blog.ronaldoussoren.net/>
On Fri, 30 Oct 2020, 09:29 Ronald Oussoren via Python-Dev, <python-dev@python.org <mailto:python-dev@python.org>> wrote:
On 29 Oct 2020, at 22:43, Victor Stinner <vstinner@python.org <mailto:vstinner@python.org>> wrote:
Hi,
I propose to drop the Solaris support in Python to reduce the Python maintenance burden:
https://bugs.python.org/issue42173 <https://bugs.python.org/issue42173>
I wrote a draft PR to show how much code could be removed (around 700 lines in 65 files):
https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/23002/files <https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/23002/files>
A significant fraction of that is in comments and documentation. A number of the changes in documentation would be good to go in regardless of the resolution of this proposal.
In 2016, I asked if we still wanted to maintain the Solaris support in Python, because Solaris buildbots were failing for longer than 6 months and nobody was able to fix them. It was requested to find a core developer volunteer to fix Solaris issues and to set up a Solaris buildbot.
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/thread/NOT2RORSN... <https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/thread/NOT2RORSN...>
Four years later, nothing has happened. Moreover, in 2018, Oracle laid off the Solaris development engineering staff. There are around 25 open Python bugs specific to Solaris.
As another data point: There is someone on BPO that files issues about Solaris on BPO, including PRs. It might be worthwhile to ask that person if they can provide a buildbot (while making clear that this results in the assumption that they’d look after Solaris port).
If Solaris would get dropped I’d prefer option 2
Ronald —
Twitter / micro.blog: @ronaldoussoren Blog: https://blog.ronaldoussoren.net/ <https://blog.ronaldoussoren.net/>
_______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org <mailto:python-dev@python.org> To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org <mailto:python-dev-leave@python.org> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ <https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/> Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/XFRQ2VEB... <https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/XFRQ2VEB...> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ <http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/> _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/A7Q7GW7Z... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Hi Ronald, Le ven. 30 oct. 2020 à 12:59, Ronald Oussoren <ronaldoussoren@mac.com> a écrit :
I agree. That’s what I tried to write, its not just providing a buildbot but also making sure that it keeps working and stays green.
This is really great! Jesús Cea Avión is also a volunteer to maintain the Solaris (see the bpo). Moreover, it seems like some people would like to provide servers to run a Solaris buildbot. Example: https://bugs.python.org/issue42173#msg379895 Two volunteer core developers and at least one buildbot would help a lot to ensure that Python is working on Solaris for real, and reduce the number of open Solaris issues. If it happens, I'm perfectly fine with keeping Solaris support. I also hope that more people will contribute to maintain the code, not only Ronald and Jesús. Many people wrote to me that Python is a key component of Illumos (the package manager is written in Python). So maybe Python on Illumos deserves some love? There are many ways to contribute to the Solaris support of Python: * Comment Solaris issues (bugs.python.org, search for "Solaris" in the title) * Propose PRs to fix issues or implement Solaris specific features * Review Solaris PRs * Provide Solaris servers accessible to Python core developers (SSH access) * Donate to the CPython project: * https://www.python.org/psf/donations/python-dev/ * https://github.com/sponsors/python * etc. See also the https://devguide.python.org/ if you would like to contribute to Python. By the way, thanks Jakub Kulík (CC-ed to this email) who fixed multiple Solaris issues in the last 2 years ;-) Victor -- Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
On 30 Oct 2020, at 13:54, Victor Stinner <vstinner@python.org> wrote:
Hi Ronald,
Le ven. 30 oct. 2020 à 12:59, Ronald Oussoren <ronaldoussoren@mac.com> a écrit :
I agree. That’s what I tried to write, its not just providing a buildbot but also making sure that it keeps working and stays green.
This is really great!
Whoa, not so fast. I’m not volunteering work on Solaris support ;-). There is another user on BPO that works on Solaris stuff, see https://bugs.python.org/issue41839 <https://bugs.python.org/issue41839>. I have worked with Solaris (and other “classic” UNIX systems) in the past, but haven’t do so in at least 15 years. For me “cross-platform” means macOS, RHEL and Windows these days. That said, I’m willing to review Solaris PRs (time permitting) but cannot test if changes actually work. […]
By the way, thanks Jakub Kulík (CC-ed to this email) who fixed multiple Solaris issues in the last 2 years ;-)
That’s the BPO user I mentioned earlier :-) P.S. Another platform to consider dropping is IRIX, I noticed in your PR that there’s still some support for that platform in the code base and according to wikipedia IRIX has been out of development for over 14 years (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRIX <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRIX>). Ronald
Le ven. 30 oct. 2020 à 14:28, Ronald Oussoren <ronaldoussoren@mac.com> a écrit :
Whoa, not so fast. I’m not volunteering work on Solaris support ;-).
Oh sorry, I misunderstood your message :-(
That said, I’m willing to review Solaris PRs (time permitting) but cannot test if changes actually work.
"Cannot test" is the kind of problem that I'm trying to point to. I don't see how Python core developers can consider maintaining a platform if they don't have access to it.
P.S. Another platform to consider dropping is IRIX, I noticed in your PR that there’s still some support for that platform in the code base and according to wikipedia IRIX has been out of development for over 14 years (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRIX).
IRIX support has been dropped in Python 2.3 (in 2003). I removed more references to IRIX yesterday ;-) https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/5776663675b48f011d428a5874cc3c79d1d... Victor -- Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
Two volunteer core developers and at least one buildbot would help a lot to ensure that Python is working on Solaris for real, and reduce the number of open Solaris issues. If it happens, I'm perfectly fine with keeping Solaris support. I also hope that more people will contribute to maintain the code, not only Ronald and Jesús. Many people wrote to me that Python is a key component of Illumos (the package manager is written in Python). So maybe Python on Illumos deserves some love?
If we decide to take the proposal seriously, I think it may be beneficial to establish a deadline for having the buildbot green and the issues fixed, so the promise of having "real" support at some point in the future does actually manifest itself or it does not block following Victor's proposal if it actually does not happen. On Fri, 30 Oct 2020 at 12:54, Victor Stinner <vstinner@python.org> wrote:
Hi Ronald,
Le ven. 30 oct. 2020 à 12:59, Ronald Oussoren <ronaldoussoren@mac.com> a écrit :
I agree. That’s what I tried to write, its not just providing a buildbot but also making sure that it keeps working and stays green.
This is really great!
Jesús Cea Avión is also a volunteer to maintain the Solaris (see the bpo).
Moreover, it seems like some people would like to provide servers to run a Solaris buildbot. Example: https://bugs.python.org/issue42173#msg379895
Two volunteer core developers and at least one buildbot would help a lot to ensure that Python is working on Solaris for real, and reduce the number of open Solaris issues. If it happens, I'm perfectly fine with keeping Solaris support.
I also hope that more people will contribute to maintain the code, not only Ronald and Jesús. Many people wrote to me that Python is a key component of Illumos (the package manager is written in Python). So maybe Python on Illumos deserves some love?
There are many ways to contribute to the Solaris support of Python:
* Comment Solaris issues (bugs.python.org, search for "Solaris" in the title) * Propose PRs to fix issues or implement Solaris specific features * Review Solaris PRs * Provide Solaris servers accessible to Python core developers (SSH access) * Donate to the CPython project:
* https://www.python.org/psf/donations/python-dev/ * https://github.com/sponsors/python
* etc.
See also the https://devguide.python.org/ if you would like to contribute to Python.
By the way, thanks Jakub Kulík (CC-ed to this email) who fixed multiple Solaris issues in the last 2 years ;-)
Victor -- Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 6:37 AM Pablo Galindo Salgado <pablogsal@gmail.com> wrote:
Two volunteer core developers and at least one buildbot would help a lot to ensure that Python is working on Solaris for real, and reduce the number of open Solaris issues. If it happens, I'm perfectly fine with keeping Solaris support. I also hope that more people will contribute to maintain the code, not only Ronald and Jesús. Many people wrote to me that Python is a key component of Illumos (the package manager is written in Python). So maybe Python on Illumos deserves some love?
If we decide to take the proposal seriously, I think it may be beneficial to establish a deadline for having the buildbot green and the issues fixed, so the promise of having "real" support at some point in the future does actually manifest itself or it does not block following Victor's proposal if it actually does not happen.
I agree, and so maybe it's time to more formally establish what platforms we do support, such that any platform not listed is not considered supported. We could reorient PEP 11 towards that and for each platform we list: 1. Which buildbot must be green for that platform to be considered supported 2. Who is in charge of submitting patches to keep that buildbot green (and what that minimum number of people is) 3. We have an agreed upon timeline that if a buildbot stays red for longer than the specified time then the platform is considered abandoned 4. We all agree to prioritize patches from the people listed for a platform to fix their buildbots if they are not core devs 5. We have a clear definition of "platform" (e.g. is "Linux" a platform, or does it break down to individual distros?) Would there be anything else we would want for a platform for us to be willing to consider it supported? -Brett
On Fri, 30 Oct 2020 at 12:54, Victor Stinner <vstinner@python.org> wrote:
Hi Ronald,
Le ven. 30 oct. 2020 à 12:59, Ronald Oussoren <ronaldoussoren@mac.com> a écrit :
I agree. That’s what I tried to write, its not just providing a buildbot but also making sure that it keeps working and stays green.
This is really great!
Jesús Cea Avión is also a volunteer to maintain the Solaris (see the bpo).
Moreover, it seems like some people would like to provide servers to run a Solaris buildbot. Example: https://bugs.python.org/issue42173#msg379895
Two volunteer core developers and at least one buildbot would help a lot to ensure that Python is working on Solaris for real, and reduce the number of open Solaris issues. If it happens, I'm perfectly fine with keeping Solaris support.
I also hope that more people will contribute to maintain the code, not only Ronald and Jesús. Many people wrote to me that Python is a key component of Illumos (the package manager is written in Python). So maybe Python on Illumos deserves some love?
There are many ways to contribute to the Solaris support of Python:
* Comment Solaris issues (bugs.python.org, search for "Solaris" in the title) * Propose PRs to fix issues or implement Solaris specific features * Review Solaris PRs * Provide Solaris servers accessible to Python core developers (SSH access) * Donate to the CPython project:
* https://www.python.org/psf/donations/python-dev/ * https://github.com/sponsors/python
* etc.
See also the https://devguide.python.org/ if you would like to contribute to Python.
By the way, thanks Jakub Kulík (CC-ed to this email) who fixed multiple Solaris issues in the last 2 years ;-)
Victor -- Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
_______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/732XMDFC... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:03 AM Brett Cannon <brett@python.org> wrote:
On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 6:37 AM Pablo Galindo Salgado <pablogsal@gmail.com> wrote:
Two volunteer core developers and at least one buildbot would help a lot to ensure that Python is working on Solaris for real, and reduce the number of open Solaris issues. If it happens, I'm perfectly fine with keeping Solaris support. I also hope that more people will contribute to maintain the code, not only Ronald and Jesús. Many people wrote to me that Python is a key component of Illumos (the package manager is written in Python). So maybe Python on Illumos deserves some love?
If we decide to take the proposal seriously, I think it may be beneficial to establish a deadline for having the buildbot green and the issues fixed, so the promise of having "real" support at some point in the future does actually manifest itself or it does not block following Victor's proposal if it actually does not happen.
I agree, and so maybe it's time to more formally establish what platforms we do support, such that any platform not listed is not considered supported. We could reorient PEP 11 towards that and for each platform we list:
1. Which buildbot must be green for that platform to be considered supported 2. Who is in charge of submitting patches to keep that buildbot green (and what that minimum number of people is) 3. We have an agreed upon timeline that if a buildbot stays red for longer than the specified time then the platform is considered abandoned 4. We all agree to prioritize patches from the people listed for a platform to fix their buildbots if they are not core devs 5. We have a clear definition of "platform" (e.g. is "Linux" a platform, or does it break down to individual distros?)
Would there be anything else we would want for a platform for us to be willing to consider it supported?
If we're going to explicitly list Platforms, that gets messy to maintain. It becomes important to draw a distinction between types of support. Support is not a boolean. We're autoconf based on the posix side (like it or not) which leads to a lot of things that for the most part just mostly work, regardless of support. That is working as intended. Generally, recent enough of each of: Linux distros (all architectures), macOS, Windows, and AIX. But that alone does not constitute a platform. But to define things explicitly you need a definition of what a Platform is: is it an OS kernel? what version(s)? compiler toolchain? what versions? Is it also the C library? what version(s) of which libc variants (linux has at least three)? other system libraries? what versions? specific CPU architectures? what versions. The matrix gets huge. It can be defined. But then you need to clarify the different levels of not being in that matrix. "on the list, all clear" vs "likely works, no guarantees" vs "expect lots of test failures" vs "expect extension module build failures" vs "expect the core interpreter build to fail". We've not done this in the past. Would it even add value? It is much easier to look at the list of buildbots tagged "stable". and consider that "on the list, all clear" and everything else is in an unspecified one of the other four+ categories without arguments over which sub-support list any given thing is in. -gps
-Brett
On Fri, 30 Oct 2020 at 12:54, Victor Stinner <vstinner@python.org> wrote:
Hi Ronald,
Le ven. 30 oct. 2020 à 12:59, Ronald Oussoren <ronaldoussoren@mac.com> a écrit :
I agree. That’s what I tried to write, its not just providing a buildbot but also making sure that it keeps working and stays green.
This is really great!
Jesús Cea Avión is also a volunteer to maintain the Solaris (see the bpo).
Moreover, it seems like some people would like to provide servers to run a Solaris buildbot. Example: https://bugs.python.org/issue42173#msg379895
Two volunteer core developers and at least one buildbot would help a lot to ensure that Python is working on Solaris for real, and reduce the number of open Solaris issues. If it happens, I'm perfectly fine with keeping Solaris support.
I also hope that more people will contribute to maintain the code, not only Ronald and Jesús. Many people wrote to me that Python is a key component of Illumos (the package manager is written in Python). So maybe Python on Illumos deserves some love?
There are many ways to contribute to the Solaris support of Python:
* Comment Solaris issues (bugs.python.org, search for "Solaris" in the title) * Propose PRs to fix issues or implement Solaris specific features * Review Solaris PRs * Provide Solaris servers accessible to Python core developers (SSH access) * Donate to the CPython project:
* https://www.python.org/psf/donations/python-dev/ * https://github.com/sponsors/python
* etc.
See also the https://devguide.python.org/ if you would like to contribute to Python.
By the way, thanks Jakub Kulík (CC-ed to this email) who fixed multiple Solaris issues in the last 2 years ;-)
Victor -- Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
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Hi, that was me fixing Oracle Solaris related issues. To be completely honest, I wasn't sure if you would be interested in some of our patches, because I thought that Python works without issues on Illumos based systems and our patches might be very Oracle Solaris specific. It seems that I was wrong (especially if I am the only one making more Solaris fixes) - and looking at the OpenIndiana repo confirms that suspicion because their Python 3.7 is almost exact copy of our repo with the same patches fixing the same issues. I am more than happy to help with Solaris related Python development. It seems like Illumos is still pretty similar, hitting the same issues, so we don't have to be afraid that fixes for one will break the other (especially once/if Illumos build bot will be available). I will do more of those first three points you mentioned and also upstream more of our patches, of which we have several ( https://github.com/oracle/solaris-userland/tree/master/components/python/pyt... ). Also, as mentioned in the bug tracker, we are looking at how to provide build bots running on Oracle Solaris. Jakub pá 30. 10. 2020 v 13:54 odesílatel Victor Stinner <vstinner@python.org> napsal:
Hi Ronald,
Le ven. 30 oct. 2020 à 12:59, Ronald Oussoren <ronaldoussoren@mac.com> a écrit :
I agree. That’s what I tried to write, its not just providing a buildbot but also making sure that it keeps working and stays green.
This is really great!
Jesús Cea Avión is also a volunteer to maintain the Solaris (see the bpo).
Moreover, it seems like some people would like to provide servers to run a Solaris buildbot. Example: https://bugs.python.org/issue42173#msg379895
Two volunteer core developers and at least one buildbot would help a lot to ensure that Python is working on Solaris for real, and reduce the number of open Solaris issues. If it happens, I'm perfectly fine with keeping Solaris support.
I also hope that more people will contribute to maintain the code, not only Ronald and Jesús. Many people wrote to me that Python is a key component of Illumos (the package manager is written in Python). So maybe Python on Illumos deserves some love?
There are many ways to contribute to the Solaris support of Python:
* Comment Solaris issues (bugs.python.org, search for "Solaris" in the title) * Propose PRs to fix issues or implement Solaris specific features * Review Solaris PRs * Provide Solaris servers accessible to Python core developers (SSH access) * Donate to the CPython project:
* https://www.python.org/psf/donations/python-dev/ * https://github.com/sponsors/python
* etc.
See also the https://devguide.python.org/ if you would like to contribute to Python.
By the way, thanks Jakub Kulík (CC-ed to this email) who fixed multiple Solaris issues in the last 2 years ;-)
Victor -- Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
Hi, I've already commented on the issue, but want to make a few more points here as well. Removing Solaris support would not only impact Oracle Solaris but the open source illumos community as well. Both systems share the "SunOS" uname for historical reasons. Removing support would be a disaster for us. We are a small community compared to Linux, but there are illumos distributions (OpenIndiana, OmniOS, SmartOS, Tribblix, ...) that have many python users. It's also an essential part of our tooling and package management. I've offered to host an illumos buildbot before but it was not accepted because not all tests passed at that time. There is active work going on to get this debugged and fixed. If it is acceptable to skip some tests we can have the buildbot online tomorrow. On the ticket many users and developers have offered to step up, myself included. In our IRC channel we also had some discussions yesterday and we're hoping to bring more patches upstream soon. If there is interest in ssh access to illumos systems that is also something I can offer. Please let us know if there is more we need to do to keep python on illumos supported. Best regards, Sebastian
On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 8:26 AM Sebastian Wiedenroth <wiedi@frubar.net> wrote:
Hi,
I've already commented on the issue, but want to make a few more points here as well.
Removing Solaris support would not only impact Oracle Solaris but the open source illumos community as well. Both systems share the "SunOS" uname for historical reasons. Removing support would be a disaster for us.
We are a small community compared to Linux, but there are illumos distributions (OpenIndiana, OmniOS, SmartOS, Tribblix, ...) that have many python users. It's also an essential part of our tooling and package management.
I've offered to host an illumos buildbot before but it was not accepted because not all tests passed at that time. There is active work going on to get this debugged and fixed. If it is acceptable to skip some tests we can have the buildbot online tomorrow.
FWIW making a PR that adds platform specific test skips or expected failure decorators is a good way to start bringing up new buildbots. It serves as effective documentation of what does and doesn't work that lives directly in the codebase, in a way that can be evolved over time as more is made to work. -gps On the ticket many users and developers have offered to step up, myself
included. In our IRC channel we also had some discussions yesterday and we're hoping to bring more patches upstream soon.
If there is interest in ssh access to illumos systems that is also something I can offer.
Please let us know if there is more we need to do to keep python on illumos supported.
Best regards, Sebastian _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/UL4MQAKQ... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Am 30.10.2020 um 19:13 schrieb Gregory P. Smith <greg@krypto.org>:
FWIW making a PR that adds platform specific test skips or expected failure decorators is a good way to start bringing up new buildbots. It serves as effective documentation of what does and doesn't work that lives directly in the codebase, in a way that can be evolved over time as more is made to work.
Ok great, thanks for the guidance. I'll see what needs to be done for this. Best, Sebastian
Le jeu. 29 oct. 2020 à 22:43, Victor Stinner <vstinner@python.org> a écrit :
I propose to drop the Solaris support in Python to reduce the Python maintenance burden:
Since I created the issue and the PR, and sent this email to python-dev (one week ago), many Solaris and Solaris-like (ex: Illumos) users replied that the operating system is definitively alive. I didn't know that Oracle still ships new Solaris updates every month: that's a good thing! But this is not enough to support a platform. We would need proactive contributors to fix known Solaris issues, but also fix new Solaris issues (either regressions, or bugs newly discovered). We would also need a buildbot to run the Python test suite on Solaris (or again, a Solaris-like OS). The good news is that Jakub Kulik started to fix some Solaris issues. I understood that Solaris and Solaris-like operating systems do have downstream patches on Python to fix a bunch of bugs. It seems like some people want to push these fixes to Python upstream which is also a good sign. The other problem that I wanted to discuss is that fixing Solaris issues require core devs (who merge PRs) accessing Solaris. If contributors send patches and some core devs are fine with merging fixes without being able to test them manually, I'm also fine with that. My first intent was to remove support for a definitely dead operating system, but it seems like I was completely wrong (it's alive!). Thanks to people starting to fix Solaris issues, I close my PR and I no longer plan to drop Solaris support. I prefer to leave bpo-42173 open for now, since people decide to use it as a place to collaborate on fixing Solaris issues. Once most tests will pass on the master branch, I also hope that someone will set up a buildbot *and* fix issues discovered by this buildbot. Sorry but just setting up a buildbot doesn't solve any problem, it only increases the maintenance burden for people who maintain the buildbot fleet. For example, we have two AIX buildbots, I report bugs on bugs.python.org, but it seems like nobody is available to fix them... Overall, I'm quite happy with what is happening with Solaris! More collaboration, issues being fixed in Python upstream. I just hope that this work will continue next months. ;-) Victor -- Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
participants (12)
-
Antoine Pitrou -
Brett Cannon -
Christian Heimes -
Gregory P. Smith -
Jakub Kulík -
Kyle Stanley -
Pablo Galindo Salgado -
Ronald Oussoren -
Sebastian Wiedenroth -
Serhiy Storchaka -
Skip Montanaro -
Victor Stinner