Hello Core Dev,
I find a need for a core-dev chat service, wherein I could engage in some quick effervescent conversations.
It is like a team chat, that is popular with remote work these days. We even seem to have used Zoom Chat yesterday!
- I know #python-dev in IRC exists, but it is mostly a channel for bots to send notifications, and there are plenty. I am not certain if any core dev is active there. There was a time when this was active.
- We tried python discord last year, and were bit overwhelmed with the number of channels and inability to customize
- There seems to be Slack called pyslackers too[1]. I am yet to try it.
To have a proper team-chat, we need a service (a) as well as (b) team using that.
Does anyone else feel the need? Should we explore any? My thoughts and options are
a) Resurrect #python-dev - changing notifications to different group. b) Request for core-dev in pyslackers Slack c) Request for core-dev in Discord.
Any other ideas are welcome.
If you think that chatting is not a good idea, and a mailing list, and discourse(discuss.python.org) are the best option, please share your thoughts as well.
If we feel a chat service will be a good idea for core-dev to hangaround, then we can go to stage 2 of choosing the service by votes in discourse (discuss.python.org).
Thank you, Senthil
I’ve found Gitter works well. I’d use that, assuming it was only open to core devs and invitees.
On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 16:39 Senthil Kumaran <senthil@python.org> wrote:
Hello Core Dev,
I find a need for a core-dev chat service, wherein I could engage in some quick effervescent conversations.
It is like a team chat, that is popular with remote work these days. We even seem to have used Zoom Chat yesterday!
- I know #python-dev in IRC exists, but it is mostly a channel for bots to send notifications, and there are plenty. I am not certain if any core dev is active there. There was a time when this was active.
- We tried python discord last year, and were bit overwhelmed with the number of channels and inability to customize
- There seems to be Slack called pyslackers too[1]. I am yet to try it.
To have a proper team-chat, we need a service (a) as well as (b) team using that.
Does anyone else feel the need? Should we explore any? My thoughts and options are
a) Resurrect #python-dev - changing notifications to different group. b) Request for core-dev in pyslackers Slack c) Request for core-dev in Discord.
Any other ideas are welcome.
If you think that chatting is not a good idea, and a mailing list, and discourse(discuss.python.org) are the best option, please share your thoughts as well.
If we feel a chat service will be a good idea for core-dev to hangaround, then we can go to stage 2 of choosing the service by votes in discourse (discuss.python.org).
Thank you, Senthil
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-- --Guido (mobile)
We already have https://python.zulipchat.com/ setup. https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2018-April/152826.html
I don't hang around there all the time, but I usually re-open a window there around pycons and core dev sprints.
-gps
On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 4:53 PM Guido van Rossum <guido@python.org> wrote:
I’ve found Gitter works well. I’d use that, assuming it was only open to core devs and invitees.
On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 16:39 Senthil Kumaran <senthil@python.org> wrote:
Hello Core Dev,
I find a need for a core-dev chat service, wherein I could engage in some quick effervescent conversations.
It is like a team chat, that is popular with remote work these days. We even seem to have used Zoom Chat yesterday!
- I know #python-dev in IRC exists, but it is mostly a channel for bots to send notifications, and there are plenty. I am not certain if any core dev is active there. There was a time when this was active.
- We tried python discord last year, and were bit overwhelmed with the number of channels and inability to customize
- There seems to be Slack called pyslackers too[1]. I am yet to try it.
To have a proper team-chat, we need a service (a) as well as (b) team using that.
Does anyone else feel the need? Should we explore any? My thoughts and options are
a) Resurrect #python-dev - changing notifications to different group. b) Request for core-dev in pyslackers Slack c) Request for core-dev in Discord.
Any other ideas are welcome.
If you think that chatting is not a good idea, and a mailing list, and discourse(discuss.python.org) are the best option, please share your thoughts as well.
If we feel a chat service will be a good idea for core-dev to hangaround, then we can go to stage 2 of choosing the service by votes in discourse (discuss.python.org).
Thank you, Senthil
python-committers mailing list -- python-committers@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-committers-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-committers@python.org/message/B... Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
-- --Guido (mobile)
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On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 05:17:33PM -0700, Gregory P. Smith wrote:
We already have https://python.zulipchat.com/ setup. https://mail.python.org/ pipermail/python-dev/2018-April/152826.html
Is it fair to say that it didn't take off as well as we intended? Even discuss.python.org beat that take-off curve and seems like something that will stay around, at-least for capturing votes around decisions.
I don't hang around there all the time, but I usually re-open a window there around pycons and core dev sprints.
Not sure if there is any core-dev that hangs around zulip regularly. We couldn't use it as an effective medium.
If there is interest again, we could add zulip in the list of votes.
-- Senthil
On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 04:53:08PM -0700, Guido van Rossum wrote:
I’ve found Gitter works well. I’d use that, assuming it was only open to core devs and invitees.
Thanks! I interpret this as
a) Yes to a need for chat-service for core-dev. b) Add Gitter to the list of options to consider too.
I have used Gitter and I could use it too.
The important factor is the community and usage of chat.
-- Senthil
Le 14/05/2021 à 02:25, Senthil Kumaran a écrit :
On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 04:53:08PM -0700, Guido van Rossum wrote:
I’ve found Gitter works well. I’d use that, assuming it was only open to core devs and invitees.
Thanks! I interpret this as
a) Yes to a need for chat-service for core-dev. b) Add Gitter to the list of options to consider too.
I have used Gitter and I could use it too.
The important factor is the community and usage of chat.
Well, the more you create chat services for a single purpose, the less you're likely to actually find a community there. Why do you want to use Gitter if Zulip and IRC already exist?
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 09:03:05AM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
Well, the more you create chat services for a single purpose, the less you're likely to actually find a community there. Why do you want to use Gitter if Zulip and IRC already exist?
The goal is not the tool, but the community chat, specifically, core-dev chat, and to find if most feel 'OK' to give a shot at chat again.
I notice, I use Slack and Discord for specific purposes, as there is channel for the topic I am interested in, community presence, and convenience.
The tool, could be determined based what many feel comfortable with.
- Zulip and IRC for core-dev, have been tried, and not been successful.
- Gitter, Slack, or Discord for Core-Development needs have not been tried yet.
-- Senthil
Le 14/05/2021 à 09:26, Senthil Kumaran a écrit :
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 09:03:05AM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
Well, the more you create chat services for a single purpose, the less you're likely to actually find a community there. Why do you want to use Gitter if Zulip and IRC already exist?
The goal is not the tool, but the community chat, specifically, core-dev chat, and to find if most feel 'OK' to give a shot at chat again.
I notice, I use Slack and Discord for specific purposes, as there is channel for the topic I am interested in, community presence, and convenience.
The tool, could be determined based what many feel comfortable with.
- Zulip and IRC for core-dev, have been tried, and not been successful.
- Gitter, Slack, or Discord for Core-Development needs have not been tried yet.
#python-dev on IRC has been wildly successful until perhaps 2015. Personally, I would have no problem using IRC if wanted to connect to a chat for CPython at all.
Similarly, I would have no problem using Zulip. I would even say that Zulip is by far the best chat system I've ever used, and the alternatives don't come near. Its threading system is really superior to everything else.
The idea that if people don't use IRC and Zulip, then we should try another chat system, sounds like magical thought. What kind of properties do Slack, Gitter or Discord have that Zulip doesn't? They are actually quite annoying in my experience.
Regards
Antoine.
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 09:36:52AM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
#python-dev on IRC has been wildly successful until perhaps 2015. Personally, I would have no problem using IRC if wanted to connect to a chat for CPython at all.
I know, it was useful, and #python is still. The bot, github, buildbot made it more alerts only. Looks like Victor and few others still use it.
Similarly, I would have no problem using Zulip. I would even say that Zulip is by far the best chat system I've ever used, and the alternatives don't come near. Its threading system is really superior to everything else.
With Zulip, I find it hard to understand, why I need two namespaces (for lack of better term) before I start writing my text in Zulip chat.
#topic->subtopic [content]
I have not been a part of the community that uses Zulip effectively, so I haven't learnt it well.
The idea that if people don't use IRC and Zulip, then we should try another chat system, sounds like magical thought. What kind of properties do Slack, Gitter or Discord have that Zulip doesn't? They are actually quite annoying in my experience.
Some have community advantage. K8s, Golang people are on Slack. Multiple Companies are on Slack, technical barrier is very low. Similar is the case with Discord.
Community usage, and usability _perhaps_ go hand in hand. General numbers could support for this.
That said. If we (a quorum) feel comfortable using anything like IRC, Zulip, I agree, we don't need another one.
-- Senthil
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 6:48 AM Senthil Kumaran <senthil@python.org> wrote:
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 09:36:52AM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
#python-dev on IRC has been wildly successful until perhaps 2015. Personally, I would have no problem using IRC if wanted to connect to a chat for CPython at all.
I know, it was useful, and #python is still. The bot, github, buildbot made it more alerts only. Looks like Victor and few others still use it.
Similarly, I would have no problem using Zulip. I would even say that Zulip is by far the best chat system I've ever used, and the alternatives don't come near. Its threading system is really superior to everything else.
With Zulip, I find it hard to understand, why I need two namespaces (for lack of better term) before I start writing my text in Zulip chat.
#topic->subtopic [content]
I have not been a part of the community that uses Zulip effectively, so I haven't learnt it well.
The idea that if people don't use IRC and Zulip, then we should try another chat system, sounds like magical thought. What kind of properties do Slack, Gitter or Discord have that Zulip doesn't? They are actually quite annoying in my experience.
Some have community advantage. K8s, Golang people are on Slack. Multiple Companies are on Slack, technical barrier is very low. Similar is the case with Discord.
Yeah, I don't know if the Python community as a whole has totally settled on a platform.
Community usage, and usability _perhaps_ go hand in hand. General numbers could support for this.
That said. If we (a quorum) feel comfortable using anything like IRC, Zulip, I agree, we don't need another one.
You could launch a poll on discuss.python.org and see if there's a clear winner.
-Brett
-- Senthil
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I'm hesitant to start yet another communication channel without considering all the maintenance work that it entails. It's not just about "let's spin up the server" but we should think about who will moderate and administer it. Since we have tried various platforms in the past, and some just didn't work for whatever reason, it would be good to analyze and find out why we didn't like them, and how to ensure that the next platform will not end up the same fate. I hope we can properly evaluate how the next chosen chatting platform can be used more effectively.
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 11:07 AM Brett Cannon <brett@python.org> wrote:
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 6:48 AM Senthil Kumaran <senthil@python.org> wrote:
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 09:36:52AM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
#python-dev on IRC has been wildly successful until perhaps 2015. Personally, I would have no problem using IRC if wanted to connect to a chat for CPython at all.
I know, it was useful, and #python is still. The bot, github, buildbot made it more alerts only. Looks like Victor and few others still use it.
Similarly, I would have no problem using Zulip. I would even say that Zulip is by far the best chat system I've ever used, and the alternatives don't come near. Its threading system is really superior to everything else.
With Zulip, I find it hard to understand, why I need two namespaces (for lack of better term) before I start writing my text in Zulip chat.
#topic->subtopic [content]
I have not been a part of the community that uses Zulip effectively, so I haven't learnt it well.
The idea that if people don't use IRC and Zulip, then we should try another chat system, sounds like magical thought. What kind of properties do Slack, Gitter or Discord have that Zulip doesn't? They are actually quite annoying in my experience.
Some have community advantage. K8s, Golang people are on Slack. Multiple Companies are on Slack, technical barrier is very low. Similar is the case with Discord.
Yeah, I don't know if the Python community as a whole has totally settled on a platform.
Community usage, and usability _perhaps_ go hand in hand. General numbers could support for this.
That said. If we (a quorum) feel comfortable using anything like IRC, Zulip, I agree, we don't need another one.
You could launch a poll on discuss.python.org and see if there's a clear winner.
-Brett
-- Senthil
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On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 11:28:48AM -0700, Mariatta wrote:
I hope we can properly evaluate how the next chosen chatting platform can be used more effectively.
I agree. The proposal is like choice of Github. We don't self-host, but if identify something that will work for us (provided there is a need).
For CPython, I’ve been present on IRC and Zulip and Slack and Discord (and would prefer them in the reverse of that order).
I’ve used Gitter for CherryPy and Setuptools and Xonsh, but found the interface kinda meh compared to Slack and Discord.
Would be delighted if there was a preferred platform for chat and that platform be documented (and allowed to change as solutions and the community evolves).
On 14 May, 2021, at 14:07, Brett Cannon <brett@python.org<mailto:brett@python.org>> wrote:
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 6:48 AM Senthil Kumaran <senthil@python.org<mailto:senthil@python.org>> wrote: On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 09:36:52AM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
#python-dev on IRC has been wildly successful until perhaps 2015. Personally, I would have no problem using IRC if wanted to connect to a chat for CPython at all.
I know, it was useful, and #python is still. The bot, github, buildbot made it more alerts only. Looks like Victor and few others still use it.
Similarly, I would have no problem using Zulip. I would even say that Zulip is by far the best chat system I've ever used, and the alternatives don't come near. Its threading system is really superior to everything else.
With Zulip, I find it hard to understand, why I need two namespaces (for lack of better term) before I start writing my text in Zulip chat.
#topic->subtopic [content]
I have not been a part of the community that uses Zulip effectively, so I haven't learnt it well.
The idea that if people don't use IRC and Zulip, then we should try another chat system, sounds like magical thought. What kind of properties do Slack, Gitter or Discord have that Zulip doesn't? They are actually quite annoying in my experience.
Some have community advantage. K8s, Golang people are on Slack. Multiple Companies are on Slack, technical barrier is very low. Similar is the case with Discord.
Yeah, I don't know if the Python community as a whole has totally settled on a platform.
Community usage, and usability _perhaps_ go hand in hand. General numbers could support for this.
That said. If we (a quorum) feel comfortable using anything like IRC, Zulip, I agree, we don't need another one.
You could launch a poll on discuss.python.org<http://discuss.python.org/> and see if there's a clear winner.
-Brett
-- Senthil
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On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 06:30:33PM +0000, Jason R. Coombs wrote:
Would be delighted if there was a preferred platform for chat and that platform be documented (and allowed to change as solutions and the community evolves).
This resonates well with me. Especially as I use _ these chat platforms_ with other communities.
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 11:07:12AM -0700, Brett Cannon wrote:
You could launch a poll on discuss.python.org and see if there's a clear winner.
Yes, after hearing some opinions, I plan to do that. Right now, I guess the choices I am thinking are
- No, I am not interested in Chat.
- Focus on #python-dev IRC
- Focus on Zulip. Keep #python-dev for alerts.
- Gitter
- Discord
- Slack
Platform + Community (number of votes) might help us come to a consensus.
Note: This is for #python-committers. For #users, I think, discord, slack, IRC, are present at the moment.
-- Senthil
On 14.05.2021 20:50, Senthil Kumaran wrote:
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 11:07:12AM -0700, Brett Cannon wrote:
You could launch a poll on discuss.python.org and see if there's a clear winner.
Yes, after hearing some opinions, I plan to do that. Right now, I guess the choices I am thinking are
- No, I am not interested in Chat.
- Focus on #python-dev IRC
- Focus on Zulip. Keep #python-dev for alerts.
- Gitter
- Discord
- Slack
Platform + Community (number of votes) might help us come to a consensus.
Note: This is for #python-committers. For #users, I think, discord, slack, IRC, are present at the moment.
Wouldn't it make more sense to run a matrix.org server which then connects and bridges across all those channels ?
People could then continue to use their preferred platform, without losing touch.
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On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 09:21:14PM +0200, Marc-Andre Lemburg wrote:
Wouldn't it make more sense to run a matrix.org server which then connects and bridges across all those channels ?
People could then continue to use their preferred platform, without losing touch.
I haven't used matrix at all, so I couldn't imagine this. This is a great idea. If we don't have a clear consensus, but find many platforms equally preferable, then matrix bridge the islands.
One downside is, self-hosting and administration aspects that Marriata brought up. It will have to be resolved separately.
-- Senthil
Le 14/05/2021 à 21:40, Senthil Kumaran a écrit :
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 09:21:14PM +0200, Marc-Andre Lemburg wrote:
Wouldn't it make more sense to run a matrix.org server which then connects and bridges across all those channels ?
People could then continue to use their preferred platform, without losing touch.
I haven't used matrix at all, so I couldn't imagine this. This is a great idea.
I don't think this is a great idea at all. The level of integration and polishness will probably be rather low, and functionality (e.g. discussion threads) will inevitably be constrained by the lowest common denominator.
IOW, you're probably looking at a user experience as frustrating as Discourse's bidirectional e-mail bridge.
Regards
Antoine.
On Fri, 14 May 2021 at 19:51, Senthil Kumaran <senthil@python.org> wrote:
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 11:07:12AM -0700, Brett Cannon wrote:
You could launch a poll on discuss.python.org and see if there's a clear winner.
Yes, after hearing some opinions, I plan to do that. Right now, I guess the choices I am thinking are
- No, I am not interested in Chat.
- Focus on #python-dev IRC
- Focus on Zulip. Keep #python-dev for alerts.
- Gitter
- Discord
- Slack
Platform + Community (number of votes) might help us come to a consensus.
The problem with this, I think, is that my choice would be
- Whichever one people actually used
In other words, this isn't a technology problem, it's a people problem. Do enough of the core devs actually *want* to hang out in a chat forum to achieve critical mass and make it worthwhile? Also, what would we talk about? Would it only be for things like "hey, does anybody know how X works, because I'm looking at bpo-xxxx" or would "social" conversations be acceptable? How far would that go? Funny cat videos? I'm half joking, but the truth is that a community is more than just technical questions, but I don't know how many of us would like that sort of community. But conversely, a platform that people simply "pop in to" when they have a question won't last very long.
Paul
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 08:53:13PM +0100, Paul Moore wrote:
The problem with this, I think, is that my choice would be
- Whichever one people actually used
That's self-referencing, and unsolvable.
In other words, this isn't a technology problem, it's a people problem.
Both. I didn't suggest this is technology problem. We, have to choose one as per majority convenience.
Do enough of the core devs actually *want* to hang out in a chat forum to achieve critical mass and make it worthwhile?
Yes, that's why the choice exist that "We don't want any chat platform".
Also, what would we talk about?
Just as #python-dev or #python, but more constrained to committer discussions.
-- Senthil
On Fri, 14 May 2021 at 21:18, Senthil Kumaran <senthil@python.org> wrote:
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 08:53:13PM +0100, Paul Moore wrote:
The problem with this, I think, is that my choice would be
- Whichever one people actually used
That's self-referencing, and unsolvable.
It is, but it's true nevertheless. I suppose I'd have to abstain in that case. Would an "I'd be happy to have a chat platform but don't care which one" option defeat the purpose?
In other words, this isn't a technology problem, it's a people problem.
Both. I didn't suggest this is technology problem. We, have to choose one as per majority convenience.
Fair enough. That suggests that abstaining is the right answer for people without a preference, I guess.
Do enough of the core devs actually *want* to hang out in a chat forum to achieve critical mass and make it worthwhile?
Yes, that's why the choice exist that "We don't want any chat platform".
OK, as long as you don't also assume that abstention means "not interested in chat".
Also, what would we talk about?
Just as #python-dev or #python, but more constrained to committer discussions.
Sorry, I don't use IRC so that doesn't help much (maybe that suggests I should have said my preference is "anything except IRC" :-)) Although the reason I never really did much with IRC was that it seemed a bit too focused on the drop-in "hey, can anyone help" type of interaction. So if that's a fair assessment then I can go with that (and in that case I'd revise my vote to "not interested", as I probably wouldn't stay logged onto a chat system if it was limited to that type of conversation).
Paul
On Sat, 15 May 2021, 6:35 am Paul Moore, <p.f.moore@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 14 May 2021 at 21:18, Senthil Kumaran <senthil@python.org> wrote:
In other words, this isn't a technology problem, it's a people problem.
Both. I didn't suggest this is technology problem. We, have to choose one as per majority convenience.
Fair enough. That suggests that abstaining is the right answer for people without a preference, I guess.
Do enough of the core devs actually *want* to hang out in a chat forum to achieve critical mass and make it worthwhile?
Yes, that's why the choice exist that "We don't want any chat platform".
OK, as long as you don't also assume that abstention means "not interested in chat".
I think the wording of the poll here will matter quite a bit, as what really makes a chat channel work is having a regular core of people that are on at the same time and actually use it to talk to each other.
When that core is there, it's possible for newcomers to join, either by lurking and observing the interactions for a while, or by introducing themselves or asking a question and getting a reply. Without that core, newcomers will join, not see any traffic, not get any replies their messages, assume the channel is dead, and move on.
Time zones make it harder to build that core community, but even a channel that has a definite active time zone (e.g. US or European business hours) can be viable - you just need to indicate to newcomers the times when the channel is most active.
For myself, the only period where I was a regular in Python related IRC channels (including python-dev) was when I was working for Red Hat - I considered joining them part of my regular login process for a work day.
When I left RH, and with the notable exception of Steering Council meetings, I mostly went back to treating core development as an async-only activity (sometimes very async these days, as I'll now sometimes go for several weeks at a time without checking for any Python related messages if I'm not already involved in a specific discussion).
Since then, the only times I've joined IRC or Zulip have been for core dev and post-conference sprints, where I really was spending several hours in a block on Python in general and not already focused on a specific writing or development task.
So right now, I'd want a poll option that let me say "Only for specific events (e.g. sprints), and will use whatever is nominated for the event"
But to figure out if a new channel (or resuscitating Zulip!) would be viable, the information needed would be whether or not folks are prepared to *idle* in the channel (even if they went AFK), with a view to becoming regular participants, and what times they would be prepared to do that.
If there aren't half a dozen or a dozen folks willing to at least try to be regulars in the channel (I don't actually know the minimum viable seed number, but I assume there is academic research somewhere estimating it), and their expected availability times don't have at least some overlap, then I wouldn't expect a new channel to be any more successful than the previous attempts.
Cheers, Nick.
Hi,
I'm always connected to IRC #python-dev (Freenode) for 10 years, a few other core devs use it time to time. Come to say hello ;-)
The bugs.python.org and buildbot notifications are useful to me and I don't feel annoyed by them. But GitHub review are hard to use: only the user name and the PR number are given: PR title and comment content are not provided, you have to click on each link to know more. Moreover, when a user leaves 10 comments, there are 10 IRC notifications!
Example:
11:17 < Not-4ecb> [cpython] shihai1991 reviewed pull request #26103 commit - https://git.io/JsOQn
I almost never go to Zulipchat. I was there one month ago, 6 months since my previous visit. There were few messages.
Mailing lists, discuss.python.org, IRC, Zulipchat, Twitter, private messages, etc. Well, I have enough communication channels to talk with other core devs ;-) https://pythondev.readthedocs.io/communication.html
Victor
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 12:28:00PM +0200, Victor Stinner wrote:
The bugs.python.org and buildbot notifications are useful to me and I don't feel annoyed by them. But GitHub review are hard to use: only the user name and the PR number are given: PR title and comment content are not provided, you have to click on each link to know more. Moreover, when a user leaves 10 comments, there are 10 IRC notifications!
That's my experience too. Should the bot alerts be sent different channel, so that it has more people focus?
Mailing lists, discuss.python.org, IRC, Zulipchat, Twitter, private messages, etc. Well, I have enough communication channels to talk with other core devs ;-) https://pythondev.readthedocs.io/communication.html
Certainly. If we introduce another, perhaps the kill one which which didn't take off. I agree, not introducing another one to be mix is desirable.
-- Senthil
On 5/14/21 3:28 AM, Victor Stinner wrote:
I'm always connected to IRC #python-dev (Freenode) for 10 years, a few other core devs use it time to time. Come to say hello ;-)
I've tried the IRC channel -- way too much noise. Talking to bots is not my idea of a python dev chat.
My impression from the few times I've been there is that Victor uses it, and a bunch of bots use it (or maybe it's just one very vocal bot).
-- ~Ethan~
On 5/14/21 12:28 PM, Victor Stinner wrote:
Hi,
I'm always connected to IRC #python-dev (Freenode) for 10 years, a few other core devs use it time to time. Come to say hello ;-)
The bugs.python.org and buildbot notifications are useful to me and I don't feel annoyed by them. But GitHub review are hard to use: only the user name and the PR number are given: PR title and comment content are not provided, you have to click on each link to know more. Moreover, when a user leaves 10 comments, there are 10 IRC notifications!
Using #python-dev here as well, but with 99% of the messages being bot messages it makes it hard to see the real in-person discussions. Not saying that it's not useful, but a separate IRC channel for these might be more welcoming for #python-dev, independent of this discussions about other platforms.
Matthias
Believe it or not, there are people who are not familiar with the IRC culture. And those people are who enter the opensource culture after the 2010s. That period coincides with the growth of GitHub.
So I'm also a supporter of new communication tools. Here the list below is my consideration.
a) Are people familiar? If the tools are widely used by the tech company, I'd like to give the score. Because if the people are not familiar, it loses accessibility and maybe nobody use after some period.
b) Does it has a thread feature? I believe that most of the core devs need this feature since I observe that we discuss some topics intensively for long periods of time.
c) Does it has a secret channel?
d) Can we get a sponsor from the provider or PSF for using the tools. Because most of the tools have a subscription system and without that, we can not use the advanced features. For example, with free tier Slack, we lose old historical data.
So here is final my preferred list of that consideration
["Slack", "Discord", "Teams"]
But my personal recent experience with the Discord public server was not that good. Because I got a lot of personal talks invitation that is actually spam or scam. So I exit the channel after the sprint is ended even though I use Discord personally. If we choose Discord, I'd like to suggest creating a new server for PSF, not the rendezvous with the existed server. This is the same opinion with Slack if we have the possibility to meet with the same issue.
Regards, Dong-hee
2021년 5월 14일 (금) 오전 8:39, Senthil Kumaran <senthil@python.org>님이 작성:
Hello Core Dev,
I find a need for a core-dev chat service, wherein I could engage in some quick effervescent conversations.
It is like a team chat, that is popular with remote work these days. We even seem to have used Zoom Chat yesterday!
- I know #python-dev in IRC exists, but it is mostly a channel for bots to send notifications, and there are plenty. I am not certain if any core dev is active there. There was a time when this was active.
- We tried python discord last year, and were bit overwhelmed with the number of channels and inability to customize
- There seems to be Slack called pyslackers too[1]. I am yet to try it.
To have a proper team-chat, we need a service (a) as well as (b) team using that.
Does anyone else feel the need? Should we explore any? My thoughts and options are
a) Resurrect #python-dev - changing notifications to different group. b) Request for core-dev in pyslackers Slack c) Request for core-dev in Discord.
Any other ideas are welcome.
If you think that chatting is not a good idea, and a mailing list, and discourse(discuss.python.org) are the best option, please share your thoughts as well.
If we feel a chat service will be a good idea for core-dev to hangaround, then we can go to stage 2 of choosing the service by votes in discourse (discuss.python.org).
Thank you, Senthil
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On Sat, 15 May 2021 at 03:14, Dong-hee Na <donghee.na@python.org> wrote:
Believe it or not, there are people who are not familiar with the IRC culture. And those people are who enter the opensource culture after the 2010s. That period coincides with the growth of GitHub.
So I'm also a supporter of new communication tools. Here the list below is my consideration.
[...]
Those are all good points. I'll add one more:
- Does it have a good web-client experience? Not everyone wants to run an additional client, so being able to get the full client experience in a browser tab is important.
In case it's not clear, I'd *like* a chat-style community, but I'd prefer it to be a little more "social". We have plenty of "work-related" communication channels, but IMO we don't really have anywhere that's the online equivalent of the workplace "hanging out around the coffee machine" interactions (which are often very productive work-related conversations, but can also be purely social).
Paul
- Does it have a good web-client experience
MS teams look like provide the web client.
In case it's not clear, I'd *like* a chat-style community, but I'd prefer it to be a little more "social".
I agree that we need to be more social. I share my personal news with Victor and it would be great if I can share my personal news with other core devs :) I think that we can catch both of them if we choose any tools I suggested. For example, we can create a channel for that purpose, #freetalk, #personal_news, etc..
2021년 5월 15일 (토) 오후 5:20, Paul Moore <p.f.moore@gmail.com>님이 작성:
On Sat, 15 May 2021 at 03:14, Dong-hee Na <donghee.na@python.org> wrote:
Believe it or not, there are people who are not familiar with the IRC
culture.
And those people are who enter the opensource culture after the 2010s. That period coincides with the growth of GitHub.
So I'm also a supporter of new communication tools. Here the list below is my consideration. [...]
Those are all good points. I'll add one more:
- Does it have a good web-client experience? Not everyone wants to run an additional client, so being able to get the full client experience in a browser tab is important.
In case it's not clear, I'd *like* a chat-style community, but I'd prefer it to be a little more "social". We have plenty of "work-related" communication channels, but IMO we don't really have anywhere that's the online equivalent of the workplace "hanging out around the coffee machine" interactions (which are often very productive work-related conversations, but can also be purely social).
Paul
Paul Moore wrote:
In case it's not clear, I'd *like* a chat-style community, but I'd prefer it to be a little more "social". We have plenty of "work-related" communication channels, but IMO we don't really have anywhere that's the online equivalent of the workplace "hanging out around the coffee machine" interactions (which are often very productive work-related conversations, but can also be purely social).
+1 for a private social chat. Or a book club, or something. :)
We already have enough forums for technical discussions... I count at least six(!) that I personally used for core dev work. Another would likely do more harm than good.
Brandt
Le 15/05/2021 à 13:23, Senthil Kumaran a écrit :
On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 11:13:48AM +0900, Dong-hee Na wrote:
So I'm also a supporter of new communication tools.
I agree with everything you've mentioned, Dong-hee. Need for good tool/system that addressed our evolving needs was one of the driver of this conversation.
You still haven't explained why e.g. Zulip (which has a modern Web UI, a very well-thought threading mechanism, several clients, many integrations, is widely used, and is open source), doesn't « address our evolving needs ». In other words, I see lots of vague complaining and no concrete argument.
Regards
Antoine.
You still haven't explained why e.g. Zulip
I think that Zulip is a good service and AFAIK Zulip is the OSS project based on Python. But I think that such communication tools should be evaluated not only technology side but also on how people feel familiar with UI/UX. I don't want to evaluate the UI/UX accessibility of Zulip is good or bad but it's the issue of how people feel familiar. This phenomenon also occurs in other common (non-business) messengers. (WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger, etc..) You can observe that there is no single monopoly messenger which concurs worldwide.
The list of tools that I suggested is based on my personal observation which is normally used in tech companies. If people feel familiar and such things can address people's productivity I think that that's a good reason to choose.
Regards, Dong-hee
2021년 5월 15일 (토) 오후 11:16, Antoine Pitrou <antoine@python.org>님이 작성:
Le 15/05/2021 à 13:23, Senthil Kumaran a écrit :
On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 11:13:48AM +0900, Dong-hee Na wrote:
So I'm also a supporter of new communication tools.
I agree with everything you've mentioned, Dong-hee. Need for good tool/system that addressed our evolving needs was one of the driver of this conversation.
You still haven't explained why e.g. Zulip (which has a modern Web UI, a very well-thought threading mechanism, several clients, many integrations, is widely used, and is open source), doesn't « address our evolving needs ». In other words, I see lots of vague complaining and no concrete argument.
Regards
Antoine.
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Le 15/05/2021 à 16:37, Dong-hee Na a écrit :
You still haven't explained why e.g. Zulip
I think that Zulip is a good service and AFAIK Zulip is the OSS project based on Python. But I think that such communication tools should be evaluated not only technology side but also on how people feel familiar with UI/UX. I don't want to evaluate the UI/UX accessibility of Zulip is good or bad but it's the issue of how people feel familiar.
I don't think that's an important concern. We're talking about chat systems, which are all really approchable. If you're not familiar with Zulip, it will take little time before you can use it reasonably well. Same for Slack, Discord, Gitter... and also Discourse, by the way.
On the scale of UI friendliness, all those systems are on the "easy" side (compare with the git CLI, which is on the "difficult" side).
This phenomenon also occurs in other common (non-business) messengers. (WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger, etc..) You can observe that there is no single monopoly messenger which concurs worldwide.
Mostly because people go where their friends / colleagues / acquaintances are. In other words, those are network effects and have nothing to do with the UI friendless of each system. For example, I have to use Slack at work, yet I find Zulip far more convenient.
Regards
Antoine.
If you're not familiar with Zulip, it will take little time before you can use it reasonably well. Same for Slack, Discord, Gitter... and also Discourse, by the way. Mostly because people go where their friends / colleagues /
acquaintances are. In other words, those are network effects and have nothing to do with the UI friendless of each system. For example, I have to use Slack at work, yet I find Zulip far more convenient.
I think that we are on the same side about the considerations points but my observation bias is weighted on Slack, Discord, Teams. So I agree with you and my suggestion may not be an objective perspective. But I think that if we decide to choose to adopt new communication tools, I think that we can remove the danger factor which makes people not use after some period. And I think that it will show a higher survival probability when people feel comfortable than people feel not convenient. (Please note that convenience or comfort does not mean the systems perfectness)
In other words, those are network effects and have nothing to do with the UI friendless of each system.
The reason why I mentioned the 'UI friendless' is that we are discussing the communication tools for programming projects. IMHO, the network effect of business communication tools world is that how many people use the tool for their work. if we can not choose the most people convenient tool of the programming world, but we can choose the second one as the alternative one. For example, as you said you use Slack for your work purpose if we choose Slack (if we decide to adopt new tools) at least you and I don't have to learn how to use Zulip fluently. And I think that it can also apply to other core devs and contributors who feel comfortable with Slack or Slack-like UI/UX.
Regards, Dong-hee
2021년 5월 15일 (토) 오후 11:45, Antoine Pitrou <antoine@python.org>님이 작성:
Le 15/05/2021 à 16:37, Dong-hee Na a écrit :
You still haven't explained why e.g. Zulip
I think that Zulip is a good service and AFAIK Zulip is the OSS project based on Python. But I think that such communication tools should be evaluated not only technology side but also on how people feel familiar with UI/UX. I don't want to evaluate the UI/UX accessibility of Zulip is good or bad but it's the issue of how people feel familiar.
I don't think that's an important concern. We're talking about chat systems, which are all really approchable. If you're not familiar with Zulip, it will take little time before you can use it reasonably well. Same for Slack, Discord, Gitter... and also Discourse, by the way.
On the scale of UI friendliness, all those systems are on the "easy" side (compare with the git CLI, which is on the "difficult" side).
This phenomenon also occurs in other common (non-business) messengers. (WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger, etc..) You can observe that there is no single monopoly messenger which concurs worldwide.
Mostly because people go where their friends / colleagues / acquaintances are. In other words, those are network effects and have nothing to do with the UI friendless of each system. For example, I have to use Slack at work, yet I find Zulip far more convenient.
Regards
Antoine.
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Le 15/05/2021 à 17:11, Dong-hee Na a écrit :
So I agree with you and my suggestion may not be an objective perspective. But I think that if we decide to choose to adopt new communication tools, I think that we can remove the danger factor which makes people not use after some period.
What "danger factor" are you talking about?
Regards
Antoine.
On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 05:17:03PM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
Le 15/05/2021 à 17:11, Dong-hee Na a écrit :
So I agree with you and my suggestion may not be an objective perspective. But I think that if we decide to choose to adopt new communication tools, I think that we can remove the danger factor which makes people not use after some period.
What "danger factor" are you talking about?
My interpretation of that message, "falling out of use". The tool is less effective due to lack of usage after the initial trial period.
On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 04:16:20PM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
You still haven't explained why e.g. Zulip (which has a modern Web UI, a very well-thought threading mechanism, several clients, many integrations, is widely used, and is open source), doesn't « address our evolving needs ».
Zulip didn't take-off as well as we intended for python (core-dev) group. If it had, this discussion wouldn't have been necessary.
We can still consider Zulip, if majority of us feel to participate in in again. We will see that in the poll.
I see lots of vague complaining and no concrete argument.
Really? I don't see that way. So far, I see that few others find settling upon chat solution will be useful for core-dev too.
Le 15/05/2021 à 17:57, Senthil Kumaran a écrit :
On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 04:16:20PM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
You still haven't explained why e.g. Zulip (which has a modern Web UI, a very well-thought threading mechanism, several clients, many integrations, is widely used, and is open source), doesn't « address our evolving needs ».
- Zulip didn't take-off as well as we intended for python (core-dev) group. If it had, this discussion wouldn't have been necessary.
I'll ask the question again: what are the « evolving needs » that are not addressed by Zulip, but would be addressed by *another* chat system?
Did you notice that you are already chatting by email? Chatting about other chat platforms :-) Why not just accepting that emails won? :-)
When discuss.python.org was launched, a few discussions moved there, and slowly, moved back to python-dev list.
Emails will never die! :-D
Victor
On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 12:00 PM Victor Stinner <vstinner@python.org> wrote:
Did you notice that you are already chatting by email? Chatting about other chat platforms :-) Why not just accepting that emails won? :-)
I have several communities that *only* communicate through Discord, never email. On the python-dev mailing list, sure, email won. In other places, it most assuredly didn't. There's also the social dimension that is simply not present in email -- for good reason. There are many messages I have not sent simply because it's email, so it's more effort and carries much more weight. Discourse is better at this with 'likes' as well as direct linking and cross-referencing. It's still not the same as Discord or similar chat programs.
FWIW, I would love to add a core dev Discord server to my long-ish list of Discord servers. It's a chat platform I find convenient (much more so than Zulip and Slack, and slightly more so than IRC), very organised, with good moderation tools (better than Slack and IRC), and widely adopted. If people prefer other platforms I will endeavour to participate, but it won't be as convenient to me as Discord.
When discuss.python.org was launched, a few discussions moved there, and slowly, moved back to python-dev list.
Emails will never die! :-D
Victor
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On Mon, 17 May 2021 at 11:32, Thomas Wouters <thomas@python.org> wrote:
There's also the social dimension that is simply not present in email -- for good reason. There are many messages I have not sent simply because it's email, so it's more effort and carries much more weight.
Agreed. An example of something I'd consider "semi-social" would be "hey - does anyone know a good library for doing XXX" or "SQLAlchemy baffles me, does anyone use it or know a good tutorial?" These aren't core dev questions - they don't relate to anything I'm doing on CPython, but they are the sort of questions I'd ask a bunch of friends who I know use Python and are experienced/good coders. They also tend to be relatively immediate - it's no big deal if no-one can help, but conversely if I get an answer 3 days from now I'll probably already have worked around the issue - and tend to be conversation triggers (chat about how hard it is to discover new interesting libraries, or about how writing tutorials is an art form that a lot of projects could do with help on).
Discourse is better at this with 'likes' as well as direct linking and cross-referencing. It's still not the same as Discord or similar chat programs.
I think in general modern apps do better on the "social" aspect. Email is still my preferred option for extended discussions, longer or more complex topics, etc, but not so much for things that are more "in the moment".
Paul
FWIW, I would love to add a core dev Discord server to my long-ish list of Discord servers. It's a chat platform I find convenient (much more so than Zulip and Slack, and slightly more so than IRC), very organised, with good moderation tools (better than Slack and IRC), and widely adopted. If people prefer other platforms I will endeavour to participate, but it won't be as convenient to me as Discord.
Huge +1. I'd love to have a place to hang out and voice chat (or text) with others on the core team in real time. I think it would double as a great social outlet, and we could keep it very simple to the point where its basically just IRC with some extra features. Using existing servers like PySlackers or Python Discord aren't ideal options (as much as I love Python Discord), just because there's too much noise to filter out if one is only interested in the core dev aspect. Whatever we do, I think it needs to be just for the core development community with as little noise as possible.
On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 6:44 PM Kyle Stanley <aeros167@gmail.com> wrote:
FWIW, I would love to add a core dev Discord server to my long-ish list of
Discord servers. It's a chat platform I find convenient (much more so than Zulip and Slack, and slightly more so than IRC), very organised, with good moderation tools (better than Slack and IRC), and widely adopted. If people prefer other platforms I will endeavour to participate, but it won't be as convenient to me as Discord.
Huge +1. I'd love to have a place to hang out and voice chat (or text) with others on the core team in real time. I think it would double as a great social outlet, and we could keep it very simple to the point where its basically just IRC with some extra features. Using existing servers like PySlackers or Python Discord aren't ideal options (as much as I love Python Discord), just because there's too much noise to filter out if one is only interested in the core dev aspect. Whatever we do, I think it needs to be just for the core development community with as little noise as possible.
+1 agreed. Discord wins out in terms of features and **being where people are already at** in terms of modern IRC with replacement with bonus audio and video features for use when desired. I rarely bother to hang out on freenode IRC anymore out of inertia and being yet another window to poll. discord having a mobile app gives a much better signal and a chance that I'll stop by. It is also already where things like circuitpython happen.
None of that changes the fact that many of us won't remain online and responsive in yet another channel at most times. We're not "on call" for core dev. But we're probably not online and responsive at low latency in the existing channels either so this shouldn't come as a shock.
-gps
On 18May2021 0306, Gregory P. Smith wrote:
+1 agreed. Discord wins out in terms of features and **being where people are already at** in terms of modern IRC with replacement with bonus audio and video features for use when desired. I rarely bother to hang out on freenode IRC anymore out of inertia and being yet another window to poll. discord having a mobile app gives a much better signal and a chance that I'll stop by. It is also already where things like circuitpython happen.
Agreed. I'd be far more likely to visit Discord than anywhere else these days. I've already visited the PyPA one more often than I've checked my GitHub notifications this week :)
Personally I'm fine with asking Python Discord if they'd let us have our own space as we did for the sprints. Secret channels are free, and I'm sure they'd love to have more core devs in there, even if we've mostly muted all the other channels.
None of that changes the fact that many of us won't remain online and responsive in yet another channel at most times. We're not "on call" for core dev. But we're probably not online and responsive at low latency in the existing channels either so this shouldn't come as a shock.
Also this. Emphasising that it's a social channel rather than a work channel, and there's no obligation at all to have notifications or email updates or reminders or anything from it, would I think go a long way to easing concerns of being on call.
Cheers, Steve
Antoine Pitrou wrote:
I'll ask the question again: what are the « evolving needs » that are not addressed by Zulip, but would be addressed by *another* chat system?
I don't understand this question, and lost the context too if it was addressed to me.
The fact is, Zulip simply isn't used by python-dev. It didn't fly, and could be due to multiple reasons, not just social ones. Let's not assume that social or technical factors _alone_ lead a community to adopt something.
I was trying to gauge, if we do need a chat system, and the responses are diverse, but it seems to me that it will be welcome addition for _many_, who might find a solution, easy / convenient to hop-in and chat.
Le 18/05/2021 à 15:36, Senthil Kumaran a écrit :
Antoine Pitrou wrote:
I'll ask the question again: what are the « evolving needs » that are not addressed by Zulip, but would be addressed by *another* chat system?
I don't understand this question, and lost the context too if it was addressed to me.
The fact is, Zulip simply isn't used by python-dev. It didn't fly, and could be due to multiple reasons, not just social ones.
Sure. So why don't you just *ask* people why they don't use Zulip, instead of trying to invent explanations?
Personnally, I can already answer: I don't use the python-dev Zulip because I'm not looking for a place where to hang out persistently for python-dev topics. Perhaps I might take a look from to time, but that's all.
Regards
Antoine.
On Tue, 18 May 2021 at 15:14, Antoine Pitrou <antoine@python.org> wrote:
Le 18/05/2021 à 15:36, Senthil Kumaran a écrit :
Antoine Pitrou wrote:
I'll ask the question again: what are the « evolving needs » that are not addressed by Zulip, but would be addressed by *another* chat system?
I don't understand this question, and lost the context too if it was addressed to me.
The fact is, Zulip simply isn't used by python-dev. It didn't fly, and could be due to multiple reasons, not just social ones.
Sure. So why don't you just *ask* people why they don't use Zulip, instead of trying to invent explanations?
Personnally, I can already answer: I don't use the python-dev Zulip because I'm not looking for a place where to hang out persistently for python-dev topics. Perhaps I might take a look from to time, but that's all.
And for me, I dropped Zulip because there was never anything of interest to me happening on there.
Paul
On 5/15/2021 11:57 AM, Senthil Kumaran wrote:
On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 04:16:20PM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
You still haven't explained why e.g. Zulip (which has a modern Web UI, a very well-thought threading mechanism, several clients, many integrations, is widely used, and is open source), doesn't « address our evolving needs ».
- Zulip didn't take-off as well as we intended for python (core-dev) group. If it had, this discussion wouldn't have been necessary.
I think Zulip didn't catch on because most core devs prefer communicating on mailing lists for technical issues.
If the intent of this new core-dev chat is just a social "how are you doing" sort of thing, then I think Zulip (or most anything else) would work fine.
Eric
Eric V. Smith wrote:
If the intent of this new core-dev chat is just a social "how are you doing" sort of thing, then I think Zulip (or most anything else) would work fine.
What would be _social_ for python-dev? :) I assume it will mostly be around technical topics. The social nature observed in #python (or #python-dev when actively used) was the idea.
On Sat, 15 May 2021 at 16:58, Senthil Kumaran <senthil@python.org> wrote:
I see lots of vague complaining and no concrete argument.
Really? I don't see that way. So far, I see that few others find settling upon chat solution will be useful for core-dev too.
I see a general interest in *having* some sort of community chat, but no real plan on how to get a critical mass of people on a chat system. Specifically, we tried Zulip and it failed, in the sense that basically no-one uses it.
So let's start by working out *why* it failed. I don't see any point in having a vote, which comes up with the conclusion that (say) people like Discord, if we then set that up and there's no-one on there. If we were to ask the question, why did people stop logging into Zulip as part of their daily sign-in routine (or why did they never even start doing that), what would the answers be? Mine would be simply "because no-one was there". More specifically, even if people were there, there were no conversations going on.
Yes, it's a circular argument, unless people use a system no-one will use it. I get that. But how do we break that cycle?
Explicitly making it more of a social community (while still allowing that we're all technical so casual technical questions still count as social ;-)) might make a difference. As might a deliberate effort to keep people engaged. But just choosing a new tool and hoping people like it enough for the community to "just happen" seems destined to fail.
Paul
Le 15/05/2021 à 19:01, Paul Moore a écrit :
So let's start by working out *why* it failed. I don't see any point in having a vote, which comes up with the conclusion that (say) people like Discord, if we then set that up and there's no-one on there. If we were to ask the question, why did people stop logging into Zulip as part of their daily sign-in routine (or why did they never even start doing that), what would the answers be? Mine would be simply "because no-one was there". More specifically, even if people were there, there were no conversations going on.
That certainly sounds like the most reasonable explanation.
Explicitly making it more of a social community (while still allowing that we're all technical so casual technical questions still count as social ;-)) might make a difference. As might a deliberate effort to keep people engaged. But just choosing a new tool and hoping people like it enough for the community to "just happen" seems destined to fail.
It was proposed that people list in a public place the timespans where they can make themselves available on a chat system. That would certainly help people gather and discuss together synchronously, if they are willing to.
Regards
Antoine.
On 5/15/2021 1:01 PM, Paul Moore wrote:
Specifically, we tried Zulip and it failed, in the sense that basically no-one uses it.
So let's start by working out *why* it failed.
I never tried it because it was introduced about the same time as 'discuss', and it was enough for me to learn *that*, and then 'discord' for the sprint. I never understood what the difference was supposed to be. Maybe because I never used IRC.
I just logged in and it seems that most of the discussions were meta, about tulip itself. It is not at all limited to coredevs. Moreover, most of the discussion presented should have somehow been labelled 'closed' (BPO), 'answered' (SO), or otherwise 'ignore' or 'archived' unless specifically searched for. BPO's front page only lists the most recently active open issues.
tjr
On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 06:01:36PM +0100, Paul Moore wrote:
I see a general interest in *having* some sort of community chat, but no real plan on how to get a critical mass of people on a chat system.
So, I see you recognize the general interest too. Next step will figuring out what to do, and how to go about it.
Specifically, we tried Zulip and it failed, in the sense that basically no-one uses it.
So let's start by working out *why* it failed.
Yes. That will be separate topic.
https://discuss.python.org/t/should-we-continue-using-zulip/2816
I don't see any point in having a vote, which comes up with the conclusion that (say) people like Discord, if we then set that up and there's no-one on there. If we were to ask the question, why did people stop logging into Zulip as part of their daily sign-in routine (or why did they never even start doing that), what would the answers be? Mine would be simply "because no-one was there". More specifically, even if people were there, there were no conversations going on.
My response to this is.
- It is assuming Zulip failed due to one specific reason only.
- That sepecific reason will prevent the next solution from being successful.
I disagree with both. There could be multiple reasons, including design of the tool, preference of the community and then social needs.
We should experiment, and if we recognize a failure, acknowledge it, and close it.
Paul, my understanding of your vote was:
- I will use the system that other core-devs use.
That's very reasonable stance, and if anything comes out as majority preference, then you are adding support to it.
-- Senthil
As a data point for where newer language communities have ended up, Rust is on Discord and Zulip.
On Fri., May 14, 2021, 19:14 Dong-hee Na, <donghee.na@python.org> wrote:
Believe it or not, there are people who are not familiar with the IRC culture. And those people are who enter the opensource culture after the 2010s. That period coincides with the growth of GitHub.
So I'm also a supporter of new communication tools. Here the list below is my consideration.
a) Are people familiar? If the tools are widely used by the tech company, I'd like to give the score. Because if the people are not familiar, it loses accessibility and maybe nobody use after some period.
b) Does it has a thread feature? I believe that most of the core devs need this feature since I observe that we discuss some topics intensively for long periods of time.
c) Does it has a secret channel?
d) Can we get a sponsor from the provider or PSF for using the tools. Because most of the tools have a subscription system and without that, we can not use the advanced features. For example, with free tier Slack, we lose old historical data.
So here is final my preferred list of that consideration
["Slack", "Discord", "Teams"]
But my personal recent experience with the Discord public server was not that good. Because I got a lot of personal talks invitation that is actually spam or scam. So I exit the channel after the sprint is ended even though I use Discord personally. If we choose Discord, I'd like to suggest creating a new server for PSF, not the rendezvous with the existed server. This is the same opinion with Slack if we have the possibility to meet with the same issue.
Regards, Dong-hee
2021년 5월 14일 (금) 오전 8:39, Senthil Kumaran <senthil@python.org>님이 작성:
Hello Core Dev,
I find a need for a core-dev chat service, wherein I could engage in some quick effervescent conversations.
It is like a team chat, that is popular with remote work these days. We even seem to have used Zoom Chat yesterday!
- I know #python-dev in IRC exists, but it is mostly a channel for bots to send notifications, and there are plenty. I am not certain if any core dev is active there. There was a time when this was active.
- We tried python discord last year, and were bit overwhelmed with the number of channels and inability to customize
- There seems to be Slack called pyslackers too[1]. I am yet to try it.
To have a proper team-chat, we need a service (a) as well as (b) team using that.
Does anyone else feel the need? Should we explore any? My thoughts and options are
a) Resurrect #python-dev - changing notifications to different group. b) Request for core-dev in pyslackers Slack c) Request for core-dev in Discord.
Any other ideas are welcome.
If you think that chatting is not a good idea, and a mailing list, and discourse(discuss.python.org) are the best option, please share your thoughts as well.
If we feel a chat service will be a good idea for core-dev to hangaround, then we can go to stage 2 of choosing the service by votes in discourse (discuss.python.org).
Thank you, Senthil
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On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 09:16:33AM -0700, Brett Cannon wrote:
As a data point for where newer language communities have ended up, Rust is on Discord and Zulip.
I hopped in to study their usage for last 3 days. I wanted to find out how open source communities are actively using Zulip.
Zulip instance of Rust is more active that Zulip instance of Python.
Discord usage of Rust Team seem far more (10x) than that of Zulip. Not just (beginnner channels), but in working groups, and dev-tools etc.
-- Senthil
participants (21)
-
Antoine Pitrou -
Brandt Bucher -
Brett Cannon -
Dong-hee Na -
Eric V. Smith -
Ethan Furman -
Gregory P. Smith -
Guido van Rossum -
Jason R. Coombs -
Kyle Stanley -
Marc-Andre Lemburg -
Mariatta -
Matthias Klose -
Nick Coghlan -
Paul Moore -
Senthil Kumaran -
Senthil Kumaran -
Steve Dower -
Terry Reedy -
Thomas Wouters -
Victor Stinner