Mailman-coders June 2008

mailman-coders@python.org

1 participants
63 discussions

[ mailman-Bugs-1999387 ] Misleading question in Subscribe WWW form.
by SourceForge.net 21 Jun '08

21 Jun '08

Bugs item #1999387, was opened at 2008-06-21 04:27 Message generated for change (Comment added) made by msapiro You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=100103&aid=1999387&group_… Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. Category: (un)subscribing Group: None Status: Open Resolution: None Priority: 5 Private: No Submitted By: Tobias Schlemmer (keinstein) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: Misleading question in Subscribe WWW form. Initial Comment: Hi, At least the German translation is misleading on the subscription confirmation page of Mailman 2.1.5 as I have seen the same should be true in current trunk revison. The problem is that the Question "Nachrichtensammlungen abonnieren? Nein Ja" doesn't contain any information, that this setting is the delivery mode. It could be interpreted as "Yes, I really want to recieve emails from the list." I think the text of the default is much better to understand and would less likely loose so much information in any translation. So I suggest to change the message "Receive digests? No Yes" (in German: "Nachrichtensammlungen abonnieren? Nein Ja") to "Which delivery mode shall be used? Regular Digest" (in German "Welcher Auslieferungsmodus wird gewnscht? Normal Nachrichtensammlung") Btw.: The term "Nachrichtensammlung" just tells that it's a collection of messages, but nothing that it is deliverend as one Email containing the collection. I'd prefer to emphasize that its one email containing a collection, in German: "Sammelnachricht". That this collection will be a collection of messages shuld be easy to understand, since we are in a context of mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Comment By: Mark Sapiro (msapiro) Date: 2008-06-21 10:01 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=1123998 Originator: NO >So your answer sounds to me as the answer of a technician. But the end >user needs another solution. It is the answer of a technician. I tried to explain the technical considerations which I feel prohibit me from making this change on the 2.1 branch. If you want to discuss consistency, semantics and usability of the web interface in future releases, this bug report is not the appropriate place. The appropriate place is the mailman-developers(a)python.org list <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers>. There is an existing thread at <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2008-June/020256.html>. There is also the wiki page at <http://wiki.list.org/x/RoBE>. >In the stable branch, just change the english text to be more explicit and >use the old translations in any language. It doesn't work that way. The English text is the key used to look up the translated text in the target language's message catalog. Change one character in the English text, and the message will no longer be translated. >Both are formulated as yes/no questions, but the "or" answers "Regular" >and "Digest" are also valid answers. I'm sure that's true in many of the translations, but I can't guarantee that it's true in all 35 translations. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Comment By: Tobias Schlemmer (keinstein) Date: 2008-06-21 09:18 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=831067 Originator: YES The problem is: Even the English translation leaves too much room for misinterpretations. The "exclusive or" is not expressed. In fact it can be interpreted as "Recieve digests, too". So your answer sounds to me as the answer of a technician. But the end user needs another solution. There should be some consolidation, anyhow. At the moment even in the english translation the same feature is described at different locations in at least three different ways. This makes the communication between the everage user and administrators problematic. Most end users don't know about digest modes (or any other feature). So if the admin uses term A and the end user reads term B he won't be able to combine them, regardless the language. The best way would be to use the same terms for all the interfaces (user, admin defaults, registration). Unfortunately the user configuration pages are stored as a monolithic HTML page in the .po file. Maybe it is possible to store the strings seperately? Or field wise and generate the appropriate pages according to the settings, if either the admin changes them (if the page was not modified manually) or on explicit request? What about the following solution: Consolidate the messages in the development branch, breaking the languages. This must be possible in any software project. In the stable branch, just change the english text to be more explicit and use the old translations in any language. Some of them are already more descriptive. This should be possible using a simple sed script. The language maintainers should be informed about that and can decide if they have already a good translation or if they want to change anything. Two examples (as far as I can read them) with English and German translation: Polish: Grupowa listy w paczki? English: Group messages in digests? German: Post in Sammelnachrichten gruppieren? Czech: Dostvat pspvky jako digest? English: Deliver messages as digests? German: Post als Sammelnachrichten zustellen? Both are formulated as yes/no questions, but the "or" answers "Regular" and "Digest" are also valid answers. I'd prefer the latter two as they provide some synonymic redundance, which makes it easier to understand the question in the right way. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Comment By: Mark Sapiro (msapiro) Date: 2008-06-21 07:55 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=1123998 Originator: NO Thanks for your input. There are a couple of problems for your suggestion at least as it pertains to the 2.1.x branch (the translation is the same in 2.1.11rc1). The text "Receive digests? No Yes" is actually three strings - "Receive digests?", "No" and "Yes" which are translated separately. Changing the English to "Which delivery mode shall be used? Regular Digest" would require translation of the three strings "Which delivery mode shall be used?", "Regular" and "Digest". It happens that "Regular" and "Digest" are already translated (German = "Normal" and "Nachrichtensammlung"), but "Which delivery mode shall be used?" or anything similar is not. Thus if the English were changed 34 other translations (not counting German) would be broken. Thus, I won't change the English at this point. Given that, if you can suggest a better German translation of "Receive digests?" that would be answered "Nein" or "Ja", I will update the German translation of "Receive digests?" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=100103&aid=1999387&group_…

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[ mailman-Bugs-1999387 ] Misleading question in Subscribe WWW form.
by SourceForge.net 21 Jun '08

21 Jun '08

Bugs item #1999387, was opened at 2008-06-21 13:27 Message generated for change (Comment added) made by keinstein You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=100103&aid=1999387&group_… Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. Category: (un)subscribing Group: None Status: Open Resolution: None Priority: 5 Private: No Submitted By: Tobias Schlemmer (keinstein) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: Misleading question in Subscribe WWW form. Initial Comment: Hi, At least the German translation is misleading on the subscription confirmation page of Mailman 2.1.5 as I have seen the same should be true in current trunk revison. The problem is that the Question "Nachrichtensammlungen abonnieren? Nein Ja" doesn't contain any information, that this setting is the delivery mode. It could be interpreted as "Yes, I really want to recieve emails from the list." I think the text of the default is much better to understand and would less likely loose so much information in any translation. So I suggest to change the message "Receive digests? No Yes" (in German: "Nachrichtensammlungen abonnieren? Nein Ja") to "Which delivery mode shall be used? Regular Digest" (in German "Welcher Auslieferungsmodus wird gewnscht? Normal Nachrichtensammlung") Btw.: The term "Nachrichtensammlung" just tells that it's a collection of messages, but nothing that it is deliverend as one Email containing the collection. I'd prefer to emphasize that its one email containing a collection, in German: "Sammelnachricht". That this collection will be a collection of messages shuld be easy to understand, since we are in a context of mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Comment By: Tobias Schlemmer (keinstein) Date: 2008-06-21 18:18 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=831067 Originator: YES The problem is: Even the English translation leaves too much room for misinterpretations. The "exclusive or" is not expressed. In fact it can be interpreted as "Recieve digests, too". So your answer sounds to me as the answer of a technician. But the end user needs another solution. There should be some consolidation, anyhow. At the moment even in the english translation the same feature is described at different locations in at least three different ways. This makes the communication between the everage user and administrators problematic. Most end users don't know about digest modes (or any other feature). So if the admin uses term A and the end user reads term B he won't be able to combine them, regardless the language. The best way would be to use the same terms for all the interfaces (user, admin defaults, registration). Unfortunately the user configuration pages are stored as a monolithic HTML page in the .po file. Maybe it is possible to store the strings seperately? Or field wise and generate the appropriate pages according to the settings, if either the admin changes them (if the page was not modified manually) or on explicit request? What about the following solution: Consolidate the messages in the development branch, breaking the languages. This must be possible in any software project. In the stable branch, just change the english text to be more explicit and use the old translations in any language. Some of them are already more descriptive. This should be possible using a simple sed script. The language maintainers should be informed about that and can decide if they have already a good translation or if they want to change anything. Two examples (as far as I can read them) with English and German translation: Polish: Grupowa listy w paczki? English: Group messages in digests? German: Post in Sammelnachrichten gruppieren? Czech: Dostvat pspvky jako digest? English: Deliver messages as digests? German: Post als Sammelnachrichten zustellen? Both are formulated as yes/no questions, but the "or" answers "Regular" and "Digest" are also valid answers. I'd prefer the latter two as they provide some synonymic redundance, which makes it easier to understand the question in the right way. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Comment By: Mark Sapiro (msapiro) Date: 2008-06-21 16:55 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=1123998 Originator: NO Thanks for your input. There are a couple of problems for your suggestion at least as it pertains to the 2.1.x branch (the translation is the same in 2.1.11rc1). The text "Receive digests? No Yes" is actually three strings - "Receive digests?", "No" and "Yes" which are translated separately. Changing the English to "Which delivery mode shall be used? Regular Digest" would require translation of the three strings "Which delivery mode shall be used?", "Regular" and "Digest". It happens that "Regular" and "Digest" are already translated (German = "Normal" and "Nachrichtensammlung"), but "Which delivery mode shall be used?" or anything similar is not. Thus if the English were changed 34 other translations (not counting German) would be broken. Thus, I won't change the English at this point. Given that, if you can suggest a better German translation of "Receive digests?" that would be answered "Nein" or "Ja", I will update the German translation of "Receive digests?" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=100103&aid=1999387&group_…

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[ mailman-Bugs-1999387 ] Misleading question in Subscribe WWW form.
by SourceForge.net 21 Jun '08

21 Jun '08

1 0

[ mailman-Bugs-1999387 ] Misleading question in Subscribe WWW form.
by SourceForge.net 21 Jun '08

21 Jun '08

Bugs item #1999387, was opened at 2008-06-21 13:27 Message generated for change (Tracker Item Submitted) made by Item Submitter You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=100103&aid=1999387&group_… Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. Category: (un)subscribing Group: None Status: Open Resolution: None Priority: 5 Private: No Submitted By: Tobias Schlemmer (keinstein) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: Misleading question in Subscribe WWW form. Initial Comment: Hi, At least the German translation is misleading on the subscription confirmation page of Mailman 2.1.5 as I have seen the same should be true in current trunk revison. The problem is that the Question "Nachrichtensammlungen abonnieren? Nein Ja" doesn't contain any information, that this setting is the delivery mode. It could be interpreted as "Yes, I really want to recieve emails from the list." I think the text of the default is much better to understand and would less likely loose so much information in any translation. So I suggest to change the message "Receive digests? No Yes" (in German: "Nachrichtensammlungen abonnieren? Nein Ja") to "Which delivery mode shall be used? Regular Digest" (in German "Welcher Auslieferungsmodus wird gewnscht? Normal Nachrichtensammlung") Btw.: The term "Nachrichtensammlung" just tells that it's a collection of messages, but nothing that it is deliverend as one Email containing the collection. I'd prefer to emphasize that its one email containing a collection, in German: "Sammelnachricht". That this collection will be a collection of messages shuld be easy to understand, since we are in a context of mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=100103&aid=1999387&group_…

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[ mailman-Bugs-1996767 ] Authorization failed using FF3 (Win32)
by SourceForge.net 19 Jun '08

19 Jun '08

Bugs item #1996767, was opened at 2008-06-18 09:12 Message generated for change (Comment added) made by realriot You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=100103&aid=1996767&group_… Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. Category: Web/CGI Group: 2.1 (stable) >Status: Open Resolution: Works For Me Priority: 5 Private: No Submitted By: realriot (realriot) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: Authorization failed using FF3 (Win32) Initial Comment: Today, 1 day after the release of FireFox 3 I'm trying to login to my mailman 2.1.10. After entering the correct password the errormessage "Authorization failed" is shown. Deleting the Browser Cache/Cookies didn't fix the problem. There's no problem logging in with Firefox 2 or IE7. All other tested browsers work, too. Except FireFox 3. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Comment By: realriot (realriot) Date: 2008-06-20 08:18 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=2121701 Originator: YES Seems to be a cookie problem (or something like that). If I login with directly giving the pass (adminpw=foobar) it works... Entering the password at the password prompt the login fails... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Comment By: Mark Sapiro (msapiro) Date: 2008-06-20 03:29 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=1123998 Originator: NO I second Barry's comment. I have no problems with FireFox 3 on Win XP or Mac OS X. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Comment By: Barry A. Warsaw (bwarsaw) Date: 2008-06-19 23:22 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=12800 Originator: NO I've been using FF3 on both OS X and Ubuntu and have had no problems interacting with any of the mailing lists. I think we'll need more information in order to help you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=100103&aid=1996767&group_…

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[ mailman-Bugs-1996767 ] Authorization failed using FF3 (Win32)
by SourceForge.net 19 Jun '08

19 Jun '08

Bugs item #1996767, was opened at 2008-06-18 00:12 Message generated for change (Comment added) made by msapiro You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=100103&aid=1996767&group_… Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. Category: Web/CGI Group: 2.1 (stable) Status: Pending Resolution: Works For Me Priority: 5 Private: No Submitted By: realriot (realriot) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: Authorization failed using FF3 (Win32) Initial Comment: Today, 1 day after the release of FireFox 3 I'm trying to login to my mailman 2.1.10. After entering the correct password the errormessage "Authorization failed" is shown. Deleting the Browser Cache/Cookies didn't fix the problem. There's no problem logging in with Firefox 2 or IE7. All other tested browsers work, too. Except FireFox 3. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Comment By: Mark Sapiro (msapiro) Date: 2008-06-19 18:29 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=1123998 Originator: NO I second Barry's comment. I have no problems with FireFox 3 on Win XP or Mac OS X. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Comment By: Barry A. Warsaw (bwarsaw) Date: 2008-06-19 14:22 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=12800 Originator: NO I've been using FF3 on both OS X and Ubuntu and have had no problems interacting with any of the mailing lists. I think we'll need more information in order to help you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=100103&aid=1996767&group_…

1 0

[ mailman-Bugs-1996767 ] Authorization failed using FF3 (Win32)
by SourceForge.net 19 Jun '08

19 Jun '08

Bugs item #1996767, was opened at 2008-06-18 03:12 Message generated for change (Comment added) made by bwarsaw You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=100103&aid=1996767&group_… Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. Category: Web/CGI Group: 2.1 (stable) >Status: Pending >Resolution: Works For Me Priority: 5 Private: No Submitted By: realriot (realriot) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: Authorization failed using FF3 (Win32) Initial Comment: Today, 1 day after the release of FireFox 3 I'm trying to login to my mailman 2.1.10. After entering the correct password the errormessage "Authorization failed" is shown. Deleting the Browser Cache/Cookies didn't fix the problem. There's no problem logging in with Firefox 2 or IE7. All other tested browsers work, too. Except FireFox 3. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Comment By: Barry A. Warsaw (bwarsaw) Date: 2008-06-19 17:22 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=12800 Originator: NO I've been using FF3 on both OS X and Ubuntu and have had no problems interacting with any of the mailing lists. I think we'll need more information in order to help you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=100103&aid=1996767&group_…

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[ mailman-Bugs-1996767 ] Authorization failed using FF3 (Win32)
by SourceForge.net 18 Jun '08

18 Jun '08

Bugs item #1996767, was opened at 2008-06-18 09:12 Message generated for change (Tracker Item Submitted) made by Item Submitter You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=100103&aid=1996767&group_… Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. Category: Web/CGI Group: 2.1 (stable) Status: Open Resolution: None Priority: 5 Private: No Submitted By: realriot (realriot) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: Authorization failed using FF3 (Win32) Initial Comment: Today, 1 day after the release of FireFox 3 I'm trying to login to my mailman 2.1.10. After entering the correct password the errormessage "Authorization failed" is shown. Deleting the Browser Cache/Cookies didn't fix the problem. There's no problem logging in with Firefox 2 or IE7. All other tested browsers work, too. Except FireFox 3. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=100103&aid=1996767&group_…

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[ mailman-Feature Requests-1993432 ] Feature Request: List Confg Export/Import via Web/Email
by SourceForge.net 13 Jun '08

13 Jun '08

Feature Requests item #1993432, was opened at 2008-06-13 15:35 Message generated for change (Comment added) made by msapiro You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=350103&aid=1993432&group_… Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. >Category: None >Group: None Status: Open Resolution: None Priority: 5 Private: No Submitted By: Vanessa Layne (vlayne) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: Feature Request: List Confg Export/Import via Web/Email Initial Comment: Feature request summary: That the web admin interface provide the admin (list owner) with a way to download a configuration file for his list which contains absolutely the entire specifics of his list, and a way to upload such a configuration list, so that lists can be backed up or moved from server to server by list owners who do not have system-level access to the Mailman servers, a situation typical of Mailman installs in commercial hosting companies. Explaination of the Problem and its Context: There is presently no way for a list owner to extract from Mailman the configurations of his list unless he has command-line access. It is essentially impossible to move a list from one Mailman server to another without data loss unless one has access to the command-line tools and/or the system level files. Note that manually reconfiguring the list on another server loses all of the bounce-suspensions and user-suspensions (that is, accounts the owners of which have suspended while on vacation). The admin can only suspend subscriptions as "admin", so that, for instance, users on vacation then must ask the admin to unsuspend them. That in addition to the fact that manually configuring all the other user-selectable subscription options for a large list, manually, is an egregiously large task. In hosted environments in which Mailman is run by the hosting company as a service for their customers -- a substantial share of Mailman list owners are under these circumstances -- it is precisely the situation that the user does not have permissions necessary to run those commands against the server himself. Indeed, he may not be able to log in to the shell on the server at all. This means he must rely upon the hosting company to run backups of his Mailman configurations; he cannot run them himself to protect against disk failure. Perhaps more critically, if the list owner wishes to change hosting companies and port his list from one server to another, he has to request a dump of his config at precisely that moment when his hosting company is least motivated to answer his support requests -- after all, he's a lame-duck customer. Proposed Solution: Ideally, the administrator's web interface to Mailmail would have at least one, if not two, important new options: 1) A link to a page with downloadable links for each of the config files. 2) A link to a page to submit config files. I understand #2 is vastly more problematic. Even just having #1, however, would be enormously beneficial, if it just outputs the various files as they appear on the server. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Comment By: Mark Sapiro (msapiro) Date: 2008-06-13 15:44 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=1123998 Originator: NO Moved to Feature Requests. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=350103&aid=1993432&group_…

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[ mailman-Bugs-1993432 ] Feature Request: List Confg Export/Import via Web/Email
by SourceForge.net 13 Jun '08

13 Jun '08

Bugs item #1993432, was opened at 2008-06-13 22:35 Message generated for change (Tracker Item Submitted) made by Item Submitter You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=100103&aid=1993432&group_… Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. Category: Web/CGI Group: 2.1 (stable) Status: Open Resolution: None Priority: 5 Private: No Submitted By: Vanessa Layne (vlayne) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: Feature Request: List Confg Export/Import via Web/Email Initial Comment: Feature request summary: That the web admin interface provide the admin (list owner) with a way to download a configuration file for his list which contains absolutely the entire specifics of his list, and a way to upload such a configuration list, so that lists can be backed up or moved from server to server by list owners who do not have system-level access to the Mailman servers, a situation typical of Mailman installs in commercial hosting companies. Explaination of the Problem and its Context: There is presently no way for a list owner to extract from Mailman the configurations of his list unless he has command-line access. It is essentially impossible to move a list from one Mailman server to another without data loss unless one has access to the command-line tools and/or the system level files. Note that manually reconfiguring the list on another server loses all of the bounce-suspensions and user-suspensions (that is, accounts the owners of which have suspended while on vacation). The admin can only suspend subscriptions as "admin", so that, for instance, users on vacation then must ask the admin to unsuspend them. That in addition to the fact that manually configuring all the other user-selectable subscription options for a large list, manually, is an egregiously large task. In hosted environments in which Mailman is run by the hosting company as a service for their customers -- a substantial share of Mailman list owners are under these circumstances -- it is precisely the situation that the user does not have permissions necessary to run those commands against the server himself. Indeed, he may not be able to log in to the shell on the server at all. This means he must rely upon the hosting company to run backups of his Mailman configurations; he cannot run them himself to protect against disk failure. Perhaps more critically, if the list owner wishes to change hosting companies and port his list from one server to another, he has to request a dump of his config at precisely that moment when his hosting company is least motivated to answer his support requests -- after all, he's a lame-duck customer. Proposed Solution: Ideally, the administrator's web interface to Mailmail would have at least one, if not two, important new options: 1) A link to a page with downloadable links for each of the config files. 2) A link to a page to submit config files. I understand #2 is vastly more problematic. Even just having #1, however, would be enormously beneficial, if it just outputs the various files as they appear on the server. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=100103&aid=1993432&group_…

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Mailman-coders June 2008