Thanks for the comments!
On 4/26/07, Travis E. Oliphant <oliphant.travis(a)ieee.org> wrote:
>
> Forgive my ignorance, but I'm not really sure what this PEP is trying to
> do. I don't want to sound negative, I really just don't understand the
> purpose. I've just never encountered a problem this that I can see how
> this PEP will help me solve.
It's trying to do the same thing for numbers as Guido is doing for
collections in PEP 3119: let people make the useful distinctions
between them for whatever purposes people need to make distinctions.
It looks like the community is a lot more comfortable with overloading
than static typing, so some of the distinctions I proposed are
probably too fine.
> That doesn't mean it's not worthwhile, I just don't understand it.
>
> >
> > Abstract
> > ========
> >
> > This proposal defines a hierarchy of Abstract Base Classes (ABCs)
> > [#pep3119] to represent numbers and other algebraic entities similar
> > to numbers. It proposes:
> >
> > * A hierarchy of algebraic concepts, including monoids, groups, rings,
> > and fields with successively more operators and constraints on their
> > operators. This will be added as a new library module named
> > "algebra".
> >
>
> The SAGE people may be interested in this, but I doubt there will more
> than a handful of users of these algebraic base classes.
I expected that if someone overloads a function between integers and
rationals, the numeric people would be happier if the integer overload
triggered for square matrices as well, in which case we'd want to
encourage people to overload on Ring vs Field instead of Integral vs
FractionalReal. You'd know better whether that's actually true.
If not, I guess I'd better stop claiming that they'll be useful for
the numpy people. :)
> > * A hierarchy of specifically numeric types, which can be converted to
> > and from the native Python types. This will be added as a new
> > library module named "numbers".
> >
>
> I could see having a hierarchy of "numbers" we have one in NumPy. All
> the NumPy array scalars fall under a hierarchy of types so that it is
> easy to check whether or not you have signed or unsigned integers, or
> inexact numbers.
>
> > Object oriented systems have a general problem in constraining
> > functions that take two arguments. To take addition as an example,
> > ``int(3) + int(4)`` is defined, and ``vector(1,2,3) + vector(3,4,5)``
> > is defined, but ``int(3) + vector(3,4,5)`` doesn't make much sense.
>
> In NumPy, this kind of operation makes sense we just broadcast int(3) to
> the equivalent vector(3,3,3) and do the element-by-element operation.
>
> This is how most array packages outside of Python do it as well.
Oops; I found a bad example. Does vector(3,3,3) + matrix([4,5],[6,7])
work? Are there other good examples of the addition having to be from
the "same" group?
> I think adding the abstract base-classes for "algebras" is more
> complicated than has been discussed if you are going to start treating
> arrays as elements in their own algebra. There is a lot of flexibility
> in how arrays can be viewed in an algebraic context.
Really? Since the operators work element-wise, I would think that a
numpy array would have exactly the same algebraic structure as its
elements. One could wrap an array to put it into a particular
algebraic context, but the array itself seems pretty simple.
> The author gives a valiant go at defining base classes for generic
> algebras, but I didn't see everything I've encountered in my travels
> through algebra, and I don't understand the motivation for trying to
> include these things in Python specifically.
>
> Therefore, I would stick with defining a hierarchy of numbers and leave
> it at that for now (if I even went that far).
>
> For numbers, several suggestions have been offered. In NumPy we use
> abstract base classes that look like this
>
> Number
> Integer
> SignedInteger
> UnsignedInteger
> Inexact
> Floating
> ComplexFloating
>
> But, this is because the array scalars in NumPy are based on
> C-data-types and not on general-purpose integers or floats. In NumPy it
> is useful to check if you have an integer-typed array and so the
> base-classes become useful.
Do you have an example of when you'd want to check for an integer-typed array?
At one point, Guido was asking for reasons to include Cardinal (aka
Natural, aka Unsigned) in the hierarchy. Is UnsignedInteger only
present in NumPy because it describes some native C types, or does it
have some other purpose?
> For general purpose Python, I would do something like
>
> Complex
> Rational_Complex
> Integer_Complex
> Floating_Complex # uses hardware float
> Decimal_Complex
> Real
> Rational
> Integer
> Floating # uses hardware float
> Decimal
Are you specifying an abstract Floating type to incorporate both
floats and doubles? Glancing over the Decimal spec, and trying a few
things with the implementation, it looks like Decimal objects have a
specific precision for each thread, which can be changed for future
operations at any time. Is there still a reason to separate Floating
and Decimal, or will a modification of FloatingReal suffice?
Thanks again,
Jeffrey