Mailman 3 November 2017 - Python-ideas

Looking for input to help with the pip situation
by Michel Desmoulin Nov. 29, 2017

Nov. 29, 2017

Hello, Today I'm going to give a training in Python again. And again it will go the same way. On Mac I will have to make people install python, then tell them to use pip3. On Windows, I will have to warn them about checking the "add python executable to system path" (that one of them will ALWAYS miss anyway). Then tell them to use py -3.x -m pip because some of them will have several versions of Python installed. Then on linux, I will tell them to install python-pip and python-venv and use python3 -m pip. I'll talk about --user, but commands won't be usable on some machine where the Scripts or bin dir is not in the system path. Then I will make them create a virtualenv so that they can avoid messing with their system python and finally can just use "pip install" like in most tutorials on the Web. And eventually I'll talk about pipenv and conda. The first one so they don't have to think about activating the virtualenv everytime, or pip freeze, or create the venv, or add it to gitignore, etc. The second because anaconda is very popular on windows. There is no way a beginner is going to get any that by themselves without a lot of time and pain. They will read some tutorial on the web and struggle to make sens of what pip is and why "pip install" doesn't work and why "python sucks". I think Python is offering an incredible experience for first timer. However, the whole "where is walpip" shenanigans is not one of them. I really want some people from this list to discuss here so we can find a way to either unify a bit the way we install and use pip, or find a way to express a tutorial that always works for people on the most popular platforms and spread the word so that any doc uses it. Michel

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Re: [Python-ideas] How assignment should work with generators?
by Alon Snir Nov. 29, 2017

Nov. 29, 2017

I would like to mention that the issue of assignment to a target list, is also relevant to the case of elementwise assignment to a mutable sequence (e.g. lists and arrays). Here as well, the rhs of the assignment statement states the number of elements to be assigned. Consequently, the following example will get into infinite loop: >>> from itertools import count >>> A = [] >>> A[:] = count() Writing "A[:2] = count()" will cause the same result. Here as well, it is currently safer to use islice if the rhs is a generator or an iterator. e.g.: >>> it = count() >>> A[:] = islice(it,2) In my opinion, it is be better to devise a solution that could be applied in both cases. Maybe a new kind of assignment operator that will be dedicated to this kind of assignment. i.e. elementwise assignment with restriction on the number of elements to be assigned, based on the length of the lhs object (or the number of targets in the target list).

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raise in lambda
by Soni L. Nov. 28, 2017

Nov. 28, 2017

Would be useful to pass exception-raising lambdas around. ensure(cond, lambda: raise TypeError()) I guess one could instead use (and raise in ensure()) ensure(cond, lambda: TypeError()) But I think exception-raising lambdas would be nicer.

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Re: [Python-ideas] Repurpose `assert' into a general-purpose check
by David Mertz Nov. 28, 2017

Nov. 28, 2017

I've used Python for 20 years, and programming in general for about 40 now. I think almost EVERY large code base I've seen used asserts in their intended way. I frequently use them myself in a way differentiated (subtly) from 'if cond: raise SomeException'. I honestly don't know how Ivan has avoided seeing these. Giving up this useful construct would feel about the same as depreciating 'finally'. Yes, Python would be Turing complete without it, and you could work around it being missing... But why?! On Nov 27, 2017 11:12 PM, "Ivan Pozdeev via Python-ideas" < python-ideas(a)python.org> wrote: On 28.11.2017 8:59, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > On Tue, Nov 28, 2017 at 07:35:45AM +0300, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-ideas > wrote: > > Actually, the way I'm using them, >> >> assert condition, "error message", type >> >> would probably be the most expressive way. >> > I disagree that is expressive -- I call it *misleading*. I see something > which looks like an assertion (that is, a checked comment, a contract, a > check on an internal piece of logic etc) but it is actually being used > as a test. > > > I can do anything in any Turing-complete language without any changes to >> the language. That's no reason to never change anything, is it. >> > "We can change this" is not a reason to change this. There needs to be a > *good* reason to change, and you have given no good reasons for this > change. > > > The rationale basically is: >> * As it was intended, the statement has no practical use -- basically a >> rudiment, due to disappear eventually >> > Nonsense. I make extensive use of assert as a way of checking > assertions, and I will fight tooth and nail against any proposal to > either remove it or to misuse it for public input tests instead of > assertions. > I invite you to show me a single use case for those "assertions" because after ~20 years of experience in coding (that included fairly large projects), I've yet to see one. Any, every check that you make at debug time either * belongs in production as well (all the more because it's harder to diagnose there), or * belongs in a test -- something coded independently from the program (if your code as a whole cannot be trusted, how any specific part of it can?), or * isn't needed at all because a fault will inevitably surface somewhere down the line (as some exception or an incorrect result that a test will catch). Finally, I've got much experience using existing code outside its original use cases, where the original author's assumptions may no longer hold but the specific logic can be gauded to produce the desired result. Coding these assumptions in would undermine that goal. So, I see "debug assertions" as either intentionally compromizing correctness for performance (a direct opposite of Python's design principles), or as an inferiour, faulty, half-measure rudiment from times when CI wasn't a thing (thus not something that should be taught and promoted as a best practice any longer). > * It can instead be reused as syntax sugar to cover a very common use case >> > There is no need for such syntactic sugar. It would be harmful > to use assert for something which is not an assertion. > > > > -- Regards, Ivan _______________________________________________ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas(a)python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

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Re: [Python-ideas] How assignment should work with generators?
by Kirill Balunov Nov. 27, 2017

Nov. 27, 2017

> > > To show this on simple example: > > > > >>> from itertools import count, islice > > >>> it = count() > > >>> x, y = it > > >>> it > > count(3) > > For everyone else who was confused by this, as I was, that's not > actually a copy and paste from the REPL. There should be a ValueError > raised after the x, y assignment. As given, it is confusing because it > looks like the assignment succeeded, when in fact it didn't. > > > > Here the count was advanced two times but assignment did not happen. > > Correct, because there was an exception raised. > Sorry for that, I did not want to embarrass anyone, so I wrote below that the assignment did not happen. But probably the code should speak for itself, especially if it looks like a copy from REPL > if isinstance(it, collections.abc.Iterator): > # special case for iterators > x, y = it > else: > # sequences keep the old behaviour > x, y = it[:2] > No, it can be simply x, y = iter(it) > > Cons: > > 1. A special case of how assignment works > > 2. As with any implicit behavior, hard-to-find bugs > > Right. Hard-to-find bugs beats any amount of convenience in the > interactive interpreter. To use an analogy: > > "Sure, sometimes my car suddenly shifts into reverse while I'm driving > at 60 kph, sometimes the engine falls out when I go around the corner, > and occasionally the brakes catch fire, but gosh the cup holder makes it > really convenient to drink coffee while I'm stopped at traffic lights!" > :-) Perhaps a better idea might be special syntax to tell the interpreter > you don't want to run the right-hand side to completion. "Explicit is > better than implicit" -- maybe something special like: > > x, y, * = iterable > I wrote somewhere above, that "may be I like this form". But for me * '"starred" target implies -> collect something from iterable. So now I'm towards: x, y, ... = iterable But I have not summed up yet what pitfalls can be on this path. Thank you your remarks were very extensive! With kind regards, -gdg

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Allow additional separator character in variables
by Mikhail V Nov. 27, 2017

Nov. 27, 2017

Python allows underscore character as a separator in variables. This is better than nothing, still it does not make the look much better. **Proposal**: allow additional separator, namely hyphen character. **Benefits**: this should provide significant readability improvement. Compared to most syntax change proposals that I remember till now, this seems to have really tangible benefits. So all in all I see it as a significant language improvement. Besides its direct benefit as a good looking separator, it also gives an opprtunity to reduce "camelCase" or similar ugly inclusions in code. So one can easily compose human-readable variable names e.g.: my-variable figure-shape---width etc. **Problem**: currently hyphen character is used as a minus operator! The problem is as old as the history of most programming languages, and inherited from initial poorness of character sets. Therefore I don't see a single optimal solution to this. Possible solutions: Solution 1: Use another similar looking character from unicode, for example: U+02D7 (modifier letter minus sign). At the same time IMO it is needed to allow the minus character for the minus operator, namely U+2212 Minus sign. This will allow proper typography of source code. Main benefit of such approach: no breakage of current code base, since new chars are additional to existing ones. Solution 2: (radical) Disallow hyphen as minus operator, and use only U+2212 Minus sign. I.e. "a-b" would be a variable and "a − b" a minus operation. Advantage: opportunity to correct the improper character usage once and for all. Disadvantage: breakage of current code base + force UTF-8 storage use (consider e.g. editors without unicode support). Thus most probably such solution will cause howl reaching to the sky among users, despite many modern editors allow unicode and custom operator styling, for example to distinguish dash from hyphen in a monospaced editor. So is my proposal, and as usual urging for constructive conversation. (i.e. proposing to write own language/translator is not constructive conversation) Cheers, Mikhail

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Possible Enhancement to py.exe Python Launcher
by Steve Barnes Nov. 24, 2017

Nov. 24, 2017

Following on from the discussions on pip I would like to suggest, (and possibly implement), a minor change to the current py.exe python launcher. Currently the launcher, when called without a version specifier, defaults to the highest version on the basis of 3>2, x.11 > x.9, -64 > -32 however this may not always be the most desirable behaviour. I would like to suggest that it take a configuration value for the default version to use, (and possibly a separate ones for pyw, & file associations), honouring the following with the later overriding: default - as current system setting - from registry user setting - from registry user setting - from config file maybe %appdata%\pylauncher\defaults.ini environment setting - from getenv local setting - from .pyconfig file in the current directory. Options would be the same format as the -X[.Y][-BB] format currently accepted on the command line plus a --No-Py-Default option which would always error out if the version to invoke was not specified. I see this as potentially adding quite a lot of value for people with multiple python versions installed and it could tie in quite well with the possible use of py.exe as an entry point for tools such as pip. It might also increase the awareness of the launcher as those who have to stick with python 2 for the moment or in a specific context could set the default to what they need but can always override. -- Steve (Gadget) Barnes Any opinions in this message are my personal opinions and do not reflect those of my employer. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com

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Re: [Python-ideas] Rewriting the "roundrobin" recipe in the itertools documentation
by Alon Snir Nov. 23, 2017

Nov. 23, 2017

Sorry. Unfortunately I had a mistake. Alon Snir Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 12:29:47 +1100 From: Steven D'Aprano <steve(a)pearwood.info> To: python-ideas(a)python.org Subject: Re: [Python-ideas] Rewriting the "roundrobin" recipe in the itertools documentation Message-ID: <20171123012947.GT19802(a)ando.pearwood.info> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 11:28:20AM +0000, Alon Snir wrote: > It would be faster with ?deque?: It isn't. According to my testing, your version with deque is approximately two times slower than the version from toolz.itertoolz that Wes quotes. -- Steve

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Re: [Python-ideas] Adding a thin wrapper class around the functions in stdlib.heapq
by bunslow Nov. 23, 2017

Nov. 23, 2017

On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 10:52 PM, bunslow <bunslow(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I'll just note the original proposal I made was specifically designed to > be the minimum possible improvement, to avoid controversy (and e.g. a PEP). > > I agree that there are significant flaws and room for improvement in the > current heapq module (which is why things like xheap exist), but even so > it's still very useful as is, and the minimal OOP wrapper would go a long > way towards usability of the current functionality (and of course "just use > pip" is often not a viable course of action for certain developers). It > seems that such a wrapper is widely (though not unanimously) approved. > > Next step I suppose is creating a bpo issue? > > On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 10:05 PM, Nick Coghlan <ncoghlan(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> On 22 November 2017 at 11:00, Chris Angelico <rosuav(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> So the question is more: why, with Python being the way it is, do the >>> heap functions operate on a list? I think heapq.heapify is the answer: >>> in linear time, it heapifies a list *in place*. >>> >>> I don't think there's any reason to have *both* interfaces to the heap >>> functionality, but it certainly isn't illogical to try to treat a heap >>> as a thing, and therefore have a Heap type. >>> >> >> Right, the parallel here is that we have a "heapq" module for the same >> reason that we have list.sort(), sorted(), and the bisect module, rather >> than a single "SortedList" type. https://code.activestate.com/r >> ecipes/577197-sortedcollection/ then provides an example of how to >> combine those into a "SortedCollection" type. >> >> That said, I'm still in favour of adding an object-oriented wrapper to >> either `collections` or the `heapq` module for all the classic OO reasons: >> >> - it makes it easier to reliably maintain the heap invariant (just drop >> your list reference after passing it to the heap wrapper) >> - it gives both human readers and static code analysers more information >> to work with ("this is a heap" rather than "this is a list") >> - it provides a hook for improved interactive help on heap instances >> >> I don't have any great concerns about potential confusion - the OO >> wrapper will be easy enough to use that anyone that's unsure will likely >> gravitate towards that, while the lower level `heapq` functions will remain >> available for folks writing their own heap implementations. >> >> This effect would likely be even more pronounced if the OO wrapper were >> made available as `collections.Heap` (`collections` already imports the >> `heapq` module for use in the Counter implementation). >> >> Cheers, >> Nick. >> >> -- >> Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan(a)gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Python-ideas mailing list >> Python-ideas(a)python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas >> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ >> >> >

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Re: [Python-ideas] Rewriting the "roundrobin" recipe in the itertools documentation
by Alon Snir Nov. 23, 2017

Nov. 23, 2017

def roundrobin(*iterables): "roundrobin('ABC', 'D', 'EF') --> A D E B F C" nexts = [ iter(it).__next__ for it in iterables ] i = 0 while nexts: i %= len(nexts) try: yield nexts[i]() except StopIteration: del nexts[i] else: i += 1 Regards Alon Snir

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