Mailman 3 June 2020 - Python-ideas

Access (ordered) dict by index; insert slice
by Hans Ginzel 14 Sep '20

14 Sep '20

Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 18:47:44 +0200 From: Hans Ginzel <hans(a)matfyz.cz> To: Hans Ginzel <hans(a)artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz> Subject: Access (ordered) dict by index; insert slice Hello, thank you for making dict ordered. Is it planned to access key,value pair(s) by index? See https://stackoverflow.com/a/44687752/2556118 for example. Both for reading and (re)writing? Is it planned to insert pair(s) on exact index? Or generally to slice? See splice() in Perl, https://perldoc.perl.org/functions/splice.html. Use case: Represent database table metadata (columns). It is useful as to access columns both by name and by index as to insert column on specific position, https://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/8.0/en/alter-table.html, “ALTER TABLE ADD COLUMN [FIRST |AFTER col]” (consider default order or table storage size optimisation by aligning). Thank you in advance, Hans PS1: Named tuples cannot be used, are immutable. PS2: See https://metacpan.org/pod/perlref#Pseudo-hashes:-Using-an-array-as-a-hash

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Compound with .. else statement
by Jimmy Thrasibule 09 Sep '20

09 Sep '20

Hi, In Python, there are multiple [compound statements](https://docs.python.org/3/reference/compound_stmts.html) with the `else` keyword. For example: ``` for x in iterable: if x == sentinel: break else: print("Sentinel not found.") ``` or: ``` try: do_something_sensitive() except MyError: print("Oops!") else: print("We're all safe.") ``` In my situation, I would like to mix the `with` statement with `else`. In this case I would like that if no exception is raised within the `with` to run the `else` part. For example: ``` with my_context(): do_something_sensitive() else: print("We're all safe.") ``` Now imagine that in my `try .. except` block I have some heavy setup to do before `do_something_sensitive()` and some heavy cleanup when the exception occurs. I'd like my context manager to do the preparation work, execute the body, and cleanup. Or execute my else block only if there is no exception. Is there already a way to accomplish this in Python or can this be a nice to have? Regards, Jimmy

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What about having a .get(index, default) method for arrays like we have for dicts?
by Daniel. 28 Aug '20

28 Aug '20

When I need to traverse nested dicts, is a common pattern to do somedict.get('foo', {}).get('bar', {}) But there is no such equivalent for arrays, wouldn't be nice if we can follow somedict.get('foo', {}).get('bar', []).get(10) ... ? What I do in this case is surround with try/except IndexError and set some variable to None, or wrap the try/except block in a function. But this is noise in my opinion, I just want to follow the same reasoning that I have with dicts: I'm searching for some path deep nested, and want a default if not found. What do you think? Regards -- “If you're going to try, go all the way. Otherwise, don't even start. ..." Charles Bukowski

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Aside RE: Re: macaddress or networkaddress module
by Steve Barnes 13 Aug '20

13 Aug '20

As an aside I have a perfect example to back up what Paul is saying below. I work for a large corporation where developers are permitted to install python modules on their development machines, (subject to some licence restrictions), but the proxy settings required to get to PyPi vary from user to user, site to site, day to day (sometimes hour to hour) and connection type to connection type, e.g. If you are connected via WiFi you need to use a different proxy to that needed if you are on a wired connection and on a VPN (we have more than one in use) different again. To help with this I have put together a script that will try pip, if it fails will check the current location for pac.pac, get and parse it for proxies, correct a common incompatibility and then try each discovered proxy and if sill none work fall back to a list of common proxies. Once it finds a working setting it advises the user what to use in the current situation. Obviously, since the script is intended to work out how to get to PyPi, I needed to stick 100% to the standard libraries. -----Original Message----- From: Paul Moore <p.f.moore(a)gmail.com> Sent: 06 April 2020 09:11 To: Stephen J. Turnbull <turnbull.stephen.fw(a)u.tsukuba.ac.jp> Cc: Pete Wicken <petewicken(a)gmail.com>; Python-Ideas <python-ideas(a)python.org> Subject: [Python-ideas] Re: macaddress or networkaddress module On Mon, 6 Apr 2020 at 04:14, Stephen J. Turnbull <turnbull.stephen.fw(a)u.tsukuba.ac.jp> wrote: > That's OK for developers on their "own" machines, but I think there > are still a lot of folks who need approval from corporate (though I > haven't heard from Paul Moore on that theme in quite a while, maybe > it's gotten better?) Howdy :-) It's actually got a bit worse, to the point where I don't bother trying to fight the system as much any more, so things have gone quieter because of that :-) But yes, I still believe that there are important use cases for code that only uses the stdlib, and "not being able to get to the internet" is a valid use case that we shouldn't just dismiss. On the other hand, with regard to the comment you were replying to: > Up to around a decade ago, installing third-party libraries > was a huge mess, but nowadays, PyPI works, Python comes with pip > pre-installed, and telling developers they need internet access > when they first start a new project isn’t considered onerous. I think all of that is true. What I think is more important, though, is around things that aren't so much "projects" as "scripts", and that *distributing* such scripts that depend on 3rd party libraries is still problematic. Here, I'm not talking about making full-fledged packages, or py2exe style fully bundled apps, but "here's this monitoring script I wrote, let's ship it across 10 production systems and why don't you try it out on your dev boxes?" There's a *significant* step change in complexity between doing that if the script depends on just the stdlib, versus if it depends on a 3rd party module. And we don't have a really good answer to that yet (zipapps, and tools like shiv that wrap zipapps, are pretty good in practice, but they are not well known or commonly used). Paul _______________________________________________ Python-ideas mailing list -- python-ideas(a)python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-ideas-leave(a)python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-ideas@python.org/message/5BN5D… Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

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PEP 472 -- Support for indexing with keyword arguments
by Andras Tantos 12 Aug '20

12 Aug '20

Hello! I'm not sure I'm addressing the right audience here, so please direct me to the appropriate channel if that's the case... My name is Andras Tantos and I'm working on a Python library desscribing HW designs. I came across this problem of __getitem__ and co. not supporting kwargs. Apparently this extension was proposed and rejected as PEP 472. Apart from my use-case, which is arguably a corner-case and not worth modifying the language for, I believe there are two important use-cases that are worth considering with the latest improvements in the language: 1. With the recent type-hint support, the feature could be made way more descriptive if this PEP got implemented. For example, instead of doing the following: def func(in: Dict[str, int]) one could write: def func(in: Dict[key=str, value=int]) 2. It would also make 'generic classes' much cleaner to implement, similar to the way type-hints look. Consider the following code: class_Generic(object): Specializations = [] @classmethod def__getitem__(cls, *args): name = f"Generic_{len(cls.Specializations)}" Specialized = type(name, (cls,), {"specials": tuple(args)}) cls.Specializations.append(Specialized) returnSpecialized def__init__(self, value= None): self.value = value def__str__(self): ifhasattr(self, "specials"): return(f"[{type(self)}- "+ ",".join(str(special) forspecial inself.specials) + f"] - {self.value}") else: return(f"[{type(self)}- GENERIC"+ f"] - {self.value}") Generic = _Generic() #g = Generic() - fails because of no specialization is given s1 = Generic[12]() s2 = Generic[42]("Hi!") print(s1) print(s2) Running this simple example results in: python3 -i python_test.py [<class '__main__.Generic_0'> - 12] - None [<class '__main__.Generic_1'> - 42] - Hi! You can see how the specialized parameters got passed as well as the ones to '__init__'. Obviously, in real code the idea would be to filter generic parameters and set up 'Specialized' with the right set of methods and arguments. Now, without kwargs support for __getitem__, it's impossible to pass named arguments to the specialization list, which greatly limits the usability of this notation. I don't know how convincing these arguments and use-cases are for you, but could you advise me about how to start the 'ball rolling' to drum-up support for re-activating this PEP? Thanks again, Andras Tantos

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Improve handling of Unicode quotes and hyphens
by Steve Barnes 06 Aug '20

06 Aug '20

Hi All, Apologies if this has already been discussed to death. Python 3 allows Unicode characters in strings and identifiers but the actual quotation marks are only accepted in plain ASCII, i.e. the following all successfully initialise strings: ``` S1 = "Double Quoted" # Opened and closed with chr(34)0x22 S2 = 'Single Quoted' # Opened and closed with chr(39)0x27 ``` But the following all result in an error - "SyntaxError: invalid character in identifier": ``` S1 = "Double Quoted" # Opened with \u201c and closed with \u201d S2 = 'Single Quoted' # Opened with \u2018 and closed with \u2019 ``` To the experienced eye, and depending on the character font used, it is "obvious" what the problem is! The wrong quotation marks were used. The big problem, especially for beginners, is that the same keys were typed, just in the "wrong" editor or even the wrong editor mode or context I have found that in Outlook if the font is FixSys or I am replying to a plain text email it is fine but otherwise it is "helpful" - unfortunately, especially on Windows, "wrong" editors abound and include, but are not limited to, MS-Outlook, MS-Word, some online editing environments such as Quora. On top of that is the helpful substitution of a m-hyphen for minus when you press space a word later so: A = 3 - 2 # With a space syntax error due to \u2013 A = 3 - 2 # No Space or CR after I last typed it is OK as 0x2d Use cases that catch people out: 1. Sending a code snipped by email using Outlook 2. User manuals written in MS-Word - (many peoples work environment) 3. Articles published on Quora - people expect to be able to copy and paste the code for some reason. I am sure that many us have encountered these issues or similar. What can be done? 1. Persuade Microsoft, and others, to stop being so helpful by default - good luck with that! 2. Tell all users that they need to use a "proper" editor or IDE - This seems like adding an additional barrier to new & casual users. 3. Better yet tell them to use a "proper" OS like .... - At the very least many of us have to use Windows at work. 4. Start accepting hyphens as minus & Unicode quotation marks - this would be the ideal answer for pasted code but has a lot of possible things to iron out such as do we require that the quotes match and are in the typographically correct order. It is also quite a big & complex change to the python interpreter. 5. Normalise the input to the python interpreter (at least for these characters and possibly a few others) so that entering or reading from a file S1 = "Double Quoted" becomes S1 = "Double Quoted", etc. - this should be a easier change to the interpreter but, from a purist point of view, could be said to make us as bad as the others because we are not honouring what the user entered. 6. Change the error message "SyntaxError: invalid character in identifier" to include which character and it's Unicode value so that it becomes "SyntaxError: invalid character 0x201c " in identifier" - this is almost certainly the easiest change and fits well with explicit is better than implicit but still leaves it to the user to correct the erroneous input (which could be argued is both good and bad). I would like to suggest that an incremental approach might be the best - clarifying the existing error message being the thing that should not break anything and either substituting for problem characters or processing them "properly" as a later enhancement. Steve Barnes

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python interpreter docker builder
by Antonio Cavallo 16 Jul '20

16 Jul '20

Hi is there any interest (or anyone has done it before), building the python interpreter using docker? The basic idea is building the toolchain (gcc) and on top of that the python interpreter. On mac/linux it can build natively, but it can use docker to target linux from mac/windows. Thanks

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Add __eq__ to colletions.abc.Sequence ?
by Joao S. O. Bueno 08 Jul '20

08 Jul '20

Is there any reason why collections.abc.[Sequence|MutableSequence] do not have "__eq__" for free? I was writing some tests now and was caught by surprise there. (chcking the docs, if my custom MutbaleSequence also inherits from "collections.abc.Set" I will have working "__eq__" - and "__ne__", methods but also weirdly behaved "__le__" and cousins as a side efffect - weird enough I think i will just hand-write the "__eq__") While theoretically adding "__eq__" and "__ne__" _could_ hab backward compatibility issues, I think it is more probable it would actually fix some undetected bugs i a couple projets, as the default __eq__ is an identity comparison (is). Anyway, maybe there is a reason it is not a given. Any thoughts?

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giving set.add a return value
by Ben Avrahami 03 Jul '20

03 Jul '20

Hey all, Often I've found this kind of code: seen = set() for i in iterable: if i in seen: ... # do something in case of duplicates else: seen.add(i) ... # do something in case of first visit This kind of code appears whenever one needs to check for duplicates in case of a user-submitted iterable, or when we loop over a recursive iteration that may involve cycles (graph search or the like). This code could be improved if one could ensure an item is in the set, and get whether it was there before in one operation. This may seem overly specific, but dicts do do this: seen = {} for i in iterable: if seen.set_default(i, some_value) is not None: ... # do something in case of duplicates else: ... # do something in case of first visit I think the set type would benefit greatly from its add method having a return value. set.add would return True if the item was already in the set prior to insertion, and False otherwise. Looking at the Cpython code, the set_add_entry already detects existing entries, adding a return value would require no additional complexity. Any thoughts?

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Escapes inside curly braces in f-strings
by Mikhail V 01 Jul '20

01 Jul '20

Proposal: Allow standard python escapes inside curly braces in f-strings. Main point is to make clear visual distinction between text and escaped chars: # current syntax: print ("\nnewline") print ("\x0aa") # new syntax: print (f"{\n}newline") print (f"{\x0a}a") Currently it is SyntaxError: "SyntaxError: f-string expression part cannot include a backslash" Further, I suggest hex code escapes with a new prefix "\ ", i.e. backslash+space, (this would work in f-strings only obviously) so it could be used instead current variants: \\x, \\u, and \\U without need to include all leading zeros in codes. Consecutive codes can be simply separated by space. Example: # current syntax: print ("\x48\x65\x6c\x6c\x6f\U0001F601") # Hello and a smiley print ("\x0aa") # new syntax: print (f"{\ 48 65 6c 6c 6f 01F601}") print (f"{\ 0a}a") And I personally would like to see an option for decimal charcodes, e.g. with "\." prefix using the same schema as above with hex codes. Mikhail

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