Mailman 3 February 2001 - Python-Dev

RE: [Python-Dev] Those import related syntax errors again...
by Samuele Pedroni Feb. 23, 2005

Feb. 23, 2005

Hi. [Mark Hammond] > The point isn't about my suffering as such. The point is more that > python-dev owns a tiny amount of the code out there, and I don't believe we > should put Python's users through this. > > Sure - I would be happy to "upgrade" all the win32all code, no problem. I > am also happy to live in the bleeding edge and take some pain that will > cause. > > The issue is simply the user base, and giving Python a reputation of not > being able to … [View More]painlessly upgrade even dot revisions. I agree with all this. [As I imagined explicit syntax did not catch up and would require lot of discussions.] [GvR] > > Another way is to use special rules > > (similar to those for class defs), e.g. having > > > > <frag> > > y=3 > > def f(): > > exec "y=2" > > def g(): > > return y > > return g() > > > > print f() > > </frag> > > > > # print 3. > > > > Is that confusing for users? maybe they will more naturally expect 2 > > as outcome (given nested scopes). > > This seems the best compromise to me. It will lead to the least > broken code, because this is the behavior that we had before nested > scopes! It is also quite easy to implement given the current > implementation, I believe. > > Maybe we could introduce a warning rather than an error for this > situation though, because even if this behavior is clearly documented, > it will still be confusing to some, so it is better if we outlaw it in > some future version. > Yes this can be easy to implement but more confusing situations can arise: <frag> y=3 def f(): y=9 exec "y=2" def g(): return y return y,g() print f() </frag> What should this print? the situation leads not to a canonical solution as class def scopes. or <frag> def f(): from foo import * def g(): return y return g() print f() </frag> [Mark Hammond] > > This probably won't be a very popular suggestion, but how about pulling > > nested scopes (I assume they are at the root of the problem) > > until this can be solved cleanly? > > Agreed. While I think nested scopes are kinda cool, I have lived without > them, and really without missing them, for years. At the moment the cure > appears worse then the symptoms in at least a few cases. If nothing else, > it compromises the elegant simplicity of Python that drew me here in the > first place! > > Assuming that people really _do_ want this feature, IMO the bar should be > raised so there are _zero_ backward compatibility issues. I don't say anything about pulling nested scopes (I don't think my opinion can change things in this respect) but I should insist that without explicit syntax IMO raising the bar has a too high impl cost (both performance and complexity) or creates confusion. [Andrew Kuchling] > >Assuming that people really _do_ want this feature, IMO the bar should be > >raised so there are _zero_ backward compatibility issues. > > Even at the cost of additional implementation complexity? At the cost > of having to learn "scopes are nested, unless you do these two things > in which case they're not"? > > Let's not waffle. If nested scopes are worth doing, they're worth > breaking code. Either leave exec and from..import illegal, or back > out nested scopes, or think of some better solution, but let's not > introduce complicated backward compatibility hacks. IMO breaking code would be ok if we issue warnings today and implement nested scopes issuing errors tomorrow. But this is simply a statement about principles and raised impression. IMO import * in an inner scope should end up being an error, not sure about 'exec's. We will need a final BDFL statement. regards, Samuele Pedroni. [View Less]

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Case-sensitive import
by Tim Peters April 4, 2001

April 4, 2001

I'm still trying to sort this out. Some concerns and questions: I don't like the new MatchFilename, because it triggers on *all* platforms that #define HAVE_DIRENT_H. Anyone, doesn't that trigger on straight Linux systems too (all I know is that it's part of the Single UNIX Specification)? I don't like it because it implements a woefully inefficient algorithm: it cycles through the entire directory looking for a case-sensitive match. But there can be hundreds of .py files in a directory, … [View More]

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XML runtime errors?
by Fredrik Lundh March 5, 2001

March 5, 2001

stoopid question: why the heck is xmllib using "RuntimeError" to flag XML syntax errors? raise RuntimeError, 'Syntax error at line %d: %s' % (self.lineno, message) what's wrong with "SyntaxError"? </F>

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Very recent test_global failure
by Tim Peters March 2, 2001

March 2, 2001

Windows. > python ../lib/test/regrtest.py test_global test_global <test code>:2: SyntaxWarning: name 'a' is assigned to before global declaration <test code>:2: SyntaxWarning: name 'b' is assigned to before global declaration The actual stdout doesn't match the expected stdout. This much did match (between asterisk lines): ********************************************************************** test_global ********************************************************************** Then … [View More]

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Is outlawing-nested-import-* only an implementation issue?
by Ka-Ping Yee March 2, 2001

March 2, 2001

Hi all -- i've been reading the enormous thread on nested scopes with some concern, since i would very much like Python to support "proper" lexical scoping, yet i also care about compatibility. There is something missing from my understanding here: - The model is, each environment has a pointer to the enclosing environment, right? - Whenever you can't find what you're looking for, you go up to the next level and keep looking, right? - So what's the issue with not … [View More]being able to determine which variable binds in which scope? With the model just described, it's perfectly clear. Is all this breakage only caused by the particular optimizations for lookup in the implementation (fast locals, etc.)? Or have i missed something obvious? I could probably go examine the source code of the nested scoping changes to find the answer to my own question, but in case others share this confusion with me, i thought it would be worth asking. * * * Consider for a moment the following simple model of lookup: 1. A scope maps names to objects. 2. Each scope except the topmost also points to a parent scope. 3. To look up a name, first ask the current scope. 4. When lookup fails, go up to the parent scope and keep looking. I believe the above rules are common among many languages and are commonly understood. The only Python-specific parts are then: 5. The current scope is determined by the nearest enclosing 'def'. 6. These statements put a binding into the current scope: assignment (=), def, class, for, except, import And that's all. * * * Given this model, all of the scoping questions that have been raised have completely clear answers: Example I >>> y = 3 >>> def f(): ... print y ... >>> f() 3 Example II >>> y = 3 >>> def f(): ... print y ... y = 1 ... print y ... >>> f() 3 1 >>> y 3 Example III >>> y = 3 >>> def f(): ... exec "y = 2" ... def g(): ... return y ... return g() ... >>> f() 2 Example IV >>> m = open('foo.py', 'w') >>> m.write('x = 1') >>> m.close() >>> def f(): ... x = 3 ... from foo import * ... def g(): ... print x ... g() ... >>> f() 1 In Example II, the model addresses even the current situation that sometimes surprises new users of Python. Examples III and IV are the current issues of contention about nested scopes. * * * It's good to start with a simple model for the user to understand; the implementation can then do funky optimizations under the covers so long as the model is preserved. So for example, if the compiler sees that there is no "import *" or "exec" in a particular scope it can short-circuit the lookup of local variables using fast locals. But the ability of the compiler to make this optimization should only affect performance, not affect the Python language model. The model described above is the approximately the one available in Scheme. It exactly reflects the environment-diagram model of scoping as taught to most Scheme students and i would argue that it is the easiest to explain. Some implementations of Scheme, such as STk, do what is described above. UMB scheme does what Python does now: the use-before-binding of 'y' in Example II would cause an error. I was surprised that these gave different behaviours; it turns out that the Scheme standard actually forbids the use of internal defines not at the beginning of a function body, thus sidestepping the issue. But we can't do this in Python; assignment must be allowed anywhere. Given that internal assignment has to have some meaning, the above meaning makes the most sense to me. -- ?!ng [View Less]

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PEP 236: an alternative to the __future__ syntax
by Martin v. Loewis March 1, 2001

March 1, 2001

PEP 236 states that the intention of the proposed feature is to allow modules "to request that the code in module M use the new syntax or semantics in the current release C". It achieves this by introducing a new statement, the future_statement. This looks like an import statement, but isn't. The PEP author admits that 'overloading "import" does suck'. I agree (not surprisingly, since Tim added this QA item after we discussed it in email). It also says "But if we introduce a new keyword, that … [View More]

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A few small issues
by Ka-Ping Yee March 1, 2001

March 1, 2001

Hi. Here are some things i noticed tonight. 1. The error message for UnboundLocalError isn't really accurate. >>> def f(): ... x = 1 ... del x ... print x ... >>> f() Traceback (most recent call last): File "<stdin>", line 1, in ? File "<stdin>", line 4, in f UnboundLocalError: local variable 'x' referenced before assignment >>> It's not a question of the variable being referenced "… [View More]before assignment" -- it's just that the variable is undefined. Better would be a straightforward message such as UnboundLocalError: local name 'x' is not defined This message would be consistent with the others: NameError: name 'x' is not defined NameError: global name 'x' is not defined 2. Why does imp.find_module('') succeed? >>> import imp >>> imp.find_module('') (None, '/home/ping/python/', ('', '', 5)) I think it should fail with "empty module name" or something similar. 3. Normally when a script is run, it looks like '' gets prepended to sys.path so that the current directory will be searched. But if the script being run is a symlink, the symlink is resolved first to an actual file, and the directory containing that file is prepended to sys.path. This leads to strange behaviour: localhost[1004]% cat > spam.py bacon = 5 localhost[1005]% cat > /tmp/eggs.py import spam localhost[1006]% ln -s /tmp/eggs.py . localhost[1007]% python eggs.py Traceback (most recent call last): File "eggs.py", line 1, in ? import spam ImportError: No module named spam localhost[1008]% python Python 2.1a2 (#23, Feb 11 2001, 16:26:17) [GCC egcs-2.91.66 19990314/Linux (egcs-1.1.2 release)] on linux2 Type "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> import spam >>> (whereupon the confused programmer says, "Huh? If *i* could import spam, why couldn't eggs?"). Was this a design decision? Should it be changed to always prepend ''? 4. As far as i can tell, the curses.wrapper package is inaccessible. It's obscured by a curses.wrapper() function in the curses package. >>> import curses.wrapper >>> curses.wrapper <function wrapper at 0x80ebe14> >>> import sys >>> sys.modules['curses.wrapper'] <module 'curses.wrapper' from '/home/ping/dev/python/dist/src/Lib/curses/wrapper.pyc'> I don't see any way around this other than renaming curses.wrapper. -- ?!ng "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." -- Hal Abelson [View Less]

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puzzled about old checkin to pythonrun.c
by Jeremy Hylton Feb. 28, 2001

Feb. 28, 2001

Fred, You made a change to the syntax error generation code last August. I don't understand what the code is doing. It appears that the code you added is redundant, but it's hard to tell for sure because responsbility for generating well-formed SyntaxErrors is spread across several files. The code you added in pythonrun.c, line 1084, in err_input(), starts with the test (v != NULL): w = Py_BuildValue("(sO)", msg, v); PyErr_SetObject(errtype, w); Py_XDECREF(w); if (v != NULL) { … [View More]

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Re: [Python-checkins] CVS: python/dist/src/Modules _sre.c
by Fredrik Lundh Feb. 28, 2001

Feb. 28, 2001

tim indirectly wrote: > *** _sre.c 2001/01/16 07:37:30 2.52 > --- _sre.c 2001/02/28 16:44:18 2.53 > *************** > *** 2370,2377 **** > }; > > ! void > ! #if defined(WIN32) > ! __declspec(dllexport) > ! #endif > init_sre(void) > { > --- 2370,2374 ---- > }; > > ! DL_EXPORT(void) > init_sre(void) > { after this change, the separate makefile I use to build _sre on Windows no longer works (init_sre isn't exported). I don'… [View More]

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pdb and nested scopes
by Samuele Pedroni Feb. 28, 2001

Feb. 28, 2001

Hi. Sorry if everybody is already aware of this. I have checked the code for pdb in CVS , especially for the p cmd, maybe I'm wrong but given actual the implementation of things that gives no access to the value of free or cell variables. Should that be fixed? AFAIK pdb as it is works with jython too. So when fixing that, it would be nice if this would be preserved. regards, Samuele Pedroni.

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