Mailman 3 November 1999 - Mailman-Developers

Re: [Mailman-Users] optimizing mail delivery
by J C Lawrence 18 Nov '99

18 Nov '99

On Wed, 17 Nov 1999 20:37:58 -0500 (EST) Barry A Warsaw <bwarsaw(a)cnri.reston.va.us> wrote: > So do you think the Mailman way is better or worse? I'm curious > because I'm trying to decide whether I should port Mailman 1.0's > bulk mailer code to the new message pipeline. MailMan's current code is definitely in the "good enough" category. > In the current 1.2 code base (available via the anonCVS), I > os.popen() sendmail[1] passing the entire recipient list on the > command line, then I pipe the message text to stdin and let the > MTA do the rest. There's one complication; if the length of the > recipients list is greater than a certain length (current 3000), I > chop it up into multiple popens, but I don't do any sorting of the > recipient list. My view is that appropriate and efficient handling of mail for delivery is the domain of the MTA, and should not be the domain of MUA's (in which camp MailMan sorta falls). As such domain sorting is pleasant, it really only acts to further bolster technically lagging mail servers which are in need of new life anyways. > The advantage I see of this is that sendmail can do it's thing > asychronously, without keeping the list object locked the entire > time. The disadvantage is that Mailman is only aware of delivery > problems if the delivery bounces. Which of course requires a local MTA, which the current design doesn't. What actually needs to happen (presuming my current understanding of the source is correct) is that the abstraction of MailMan's internal mail queue needs to be finished. Then, a mail broadcast attempt would only stuff messages (cheaply) into the MailMan queue mechanism, and then return, unlocking the list objects. The queue object of course can be lock free (lockless DB's aren't difficult) and you then merely need to run a could of MailMan queue runners to pipe it to the MTA. One the messages are stuffed, you can then fork a queue runner, which, if there are already sufficient queue runners immediately dies. If more queue runners are needed however, it proceeds to grab messages and stuff them at the MTA in the normal fashion over SMTP. Note: If you do this adding VERP support becomes a doddle. > I'm leary though of stepping on too much of the MTA's toes -- a > good MTA should just do the right thing. This is perhaps the best point. Spending time to further bolster fading technologies when better services are freely available hardly seems worth it. > Another alternative, which would be less work and delegates all > delivery to the MTA, is to just pump all the recips to the local > smtpd via smtplib.py. The advantage here is that again we're MTA > independent, but the disadvantage is that Mailman's delivery is > synchronous with the smtpd. We'd have to be very sure to unlock > the list object during this transaction (but watching out for race > conditions, locking again if failure status's are handled > directly, etc.) More code, more opportunity for bugs. No no no no no no. MailMan oeprates asynchronously of the MTA, and because as a list server it generates unusual loads in itself, it cannot be subject to the perfoamcen vagaries of the MTA. Consider the case I used to commonly run into: Message arrives and is delivered to MailMan. MailMan explodes that message into a couple thousand more messages (100K+ subscribers). MailMan attempts to hand off messages to MTA. MTA refuses connections as system load is too high. MailMan bitches. Meanwhile another message arrives at MailMan to be exploded. > Comments? Nope! -- J C Lawrence Internet: claw(a)kanga.nu ----------(*) Internet: coder(a)kanga.nu ...Honorary Member of Clan McFud -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith... Return-Path: <owner-mailman-developers(a)python.org> Delivered-To: mailman-developers(a)dinsdale.python.org Received: from python.org (parrot.python.org [132.151.1.90]) by dinsdale.python.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 568F31CD3E for <mailman-developers(a)dinsdale.python.org>; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 21:14:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from caesar.elte.hu (caesar.elte.hu [157.181.42.42]) by python.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA20080; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 21:14:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (gorgo@localhost) by caesar.elte.hu (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id DAA50042; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 03:14:16 +0100 Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 03:14:15 +0100 (MET) From: Gergely Madarasz <gorgo(a)caesar.elte.hu> X-Sender: gorgo(a)caesar.power.elte.hu To: "Barry A. Warsaw" <bwarsaw(a)cnri.reston.va.us> Cc: Paul Tomblin <ptomblin(a)xcski.com>, J C Lawrence <claw(a)cp.net>, Klaubert Herr da Silveira <klaubert(a)bcb.gov.br>, mailman-users(a)python.org, mailman-developers(a)python.org Subject: Re: [Mailman-Developers] Re: [Mailman-Users] optimizing mail delivery In-Reply-To: <14387.22646.76313.150613(a)anthem.cnri.reston.va.us> Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.96.991118030855.28574H-100000(a)caesar.power.elte.hu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: mailman-developers-admin(a)python.org Errors-To: mailman-developers-admin(a)python.org X-BeenThere: mailman-developers(a)python.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.1+ Precedence: bulk List-Id: Mailman mailing list developers <mailman-developers.python.org> On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, Barry A. Warsaw wrote: > So do you think the Mailman way is better or worse? I'm curious > because I'm trying to decide whether I should port Mailman 1.0's bulk > mailer code to the new message pipeline. Actually I kinda like the mailman bulk mailer. Before I switched from majordomo, I used an external bulkmail package (called from aliases, what mailman doesn't do on delivery so I can't use it with mailman) to help out sendmail. Changing MTA's on a high traffic site can be a real PITA, I wouldn't like it if I had to change it because mailman can't help it out anymore :( So I think it would be nice if you left it as an option. -- Madarasz Gergely gorgo(a)caesar.elte.hu gorgo(a)linux.rulez.org It's practically impossible to look at a penguin and feel angry. Egy pingvinre gyakorlatilag lehetetlen haragosan nezni. HuLUG: http://mlf.linux.rulez.org/

1 0

Digest #399
by Barry A. Warsaw 16 Nov '99

16 Nov '99

Sorry folks, there was a bug in the new CalcRecips module that broke the last digest delivery. I think I've fixed it now but here's what happened: If you are a non-digest member, you erroneously got digest #399. Sorry about that! If you are a digest member you did not get digest #399. Please check the archives for the articles you missed. Here's the list of subjects: 1. Changes working, and list moved (mailman-developers-admin(a)python.org) 2. Changes working, and list moved (mailman-developers-admin(a)python.org) 3. Changes working, and list moved (mailman-developers-admin(a)python.org) 4. Changes working, and list moved (mailman-developers-admin(a)python.org) 5. Changes working, and list moved (mailman-developers-admin(a)python.org) 6. Changes working, and list moved (mailman-developers-admin(a)python.org) 7. Changes working, and list moved (mailman-developers-admin(a)python.org) 8. Re: Changes working, and list moved (Barry A. Warsaw) 9. Re: Changes working, and list moved (Barry A. Warsaw) 10. test from off-site (mailman-developers-admin(a)python.org) 11. test #2 (mailman-developers-admin(a)python.org) 12. Giving Translation Help (Pioppo) 13. Re: Giving Translation Help (Juan Carlos Rey Anaya) 14. Features requested... (Rick Niess) 15. Re: Features requested... (Sean Reifschneider) 16. Re: Features requested... (Barry A. Warsaw) Ain't it fun being a guinea pig? :) Sorry for any inconvenience... -Barry

1 0

Giving Translation Help
by Pioppo 15 Nov '99

15 Nov '99

Hi from Italy What is the best procedure to make a full italian translation for mailman and to have it distributed within the next (I hope) release of mailman? Thanks -- Simone Piunno, http://pioppo.cjb.net, simone(a)piunno.com Ferrara Linux Users Group --> http://ferrara.linux.it ICQ UIN: 6914669 pioppo@IRCnet on #ferrara, #linux-it GnuPG/PGP5 fp: 9C15 F0D3 E309 3593 AC95 2C92 A0CD 52B4 8603 14FC

2 1

test #2
by bwarsaw＠server.python.net 13 Nov '99

13 Nov '99

plz ignore

1 0

test from off-site
by bwarsaw＠server.python.net 13 Nov '99

13 Nov '99

I'm sending this from the starship. Please ignore. -Barry

1 0

Changes working, and list moved
by bwarsaw＠python.org 12 Nov '99

12 Nov '99

Hey folks, the purpose of this message is twofold. First, it's to let you know that I feel pretty confident about the new changes, at least insofar as they system seems to be working pretty well. I don't yet know what impact, if any there will be on performance. Second, I've moved this mailing list to our new server so at least it should /seem/ faster (the new one is an Ultra2, the old one is a Sparc5). I'll be keeping an eye on this list over the next couple of days to make sure the new version is working properly. If so, then I'll probably start moving all the existing python.org mailing lists over to it (once I've verified our sysadmins are actually backing up the Ultra2). So you guys are the guinea pigs for the new changes. You should not notice any differences; the email addresses are unchanged, as are the URLs. You'll notice the new hostname leak in a couple of places (e.g. as URLs for the Mailman logo and the public archives), but those aren't important enough to fix at the moment. If you notice /anything/ strange going on, first try to email this list. If you suspect that the messages aren't getting through, email me directly at bwarsaw(a)python.org. Okay, have fun! -Barry

2 2

Changes working, and list moved
by bwarsaw＠python.org 12 Nov '99

12 Nov '99

Hey folks, the purpose of this message is twofold. First, it's to let you know that I feel pretty confident about the new changes, at least insofar as they system seems to be working pretty well. I don't yet know what impact, if any there will be on performance. Second, I've moved this mailing list to our new server so at least it should /seem/ faster (the new one is an Ultra2, the old one is a Sparc5). I'll be keeping an eye on this list over the next couple of days to make sure the new version is working properly. If so, then I'll probably start moving all the existing python.org mailing lists over to it (once I've verified our sysadmins are actually backing up the Ultra2). So you guys are the guinea pigs for the new changes. You should not notice any differences; the email addresses are unchanged, as are the URLs. You'll notice the new hostname leak in a couple of places (e.g. as URLs for the Mailman logo and the public archives), but those aren't important enough to fix at the moment. If you notice /anything/ strange going on, first try to email this list. If you suspect that the messages aren't getting through, email me directly at bwarsaw(a)python.org. Okay, have fun! -Barry

1 0

Changes working, and list moved
by bwarsaw＠python.org 12 Nov '99

12 Nov '99

Hey folks, the purpose of this message is twofold. First, it's to let you know that I feel pretty confident about the new changes, at least insofar as they system seems to be working pretty well. I don't yet know what impact, if any there will be on performance. Second, I've moved this mailing list to our new server so at least it should /seem/ faster (the new one is an Ultra2, the old one is a Sparc5). I'll be keeping an eye on this list over the next couple of days to make sure the new version is working properly. If so, then I'll probably start moving all the existing python.org mailing lists over to it (once I've verified our sysadmins are actually backing up the Ultra2). So you guys are the guinea pigs for the new changes. You should not notice any differences; the email addresses are unchanged, as are the URLs. You'll notice the new hostname leak in a couple of places (e.g. as URLs for the Mailman logo and the public archives), but those aren't important enough to fix at the moment. If you notice /anything/ strange going on, first try to email this list. If you suspect that the messages aren't getting through, email me directly at bwarsaw(a)python.org. Okay, have fun! -Barry

1 0

Changes working, and list moved
by bwarsaw＠python.org 12 Nov '99

12 Nov '99

Hey folks, the purpose of this message is twofold. First, it's to let you know that I feel pretty confident about the new changes, at least insofar as they system seems to be working pretty well. I don't yet know what impact, if any there will be on performance. Second, I've moved this mailing list to our new server so at least it should /seem/ faster (the new one is an Ultra2, the old one is a Sparc5). I'll be keeping an eye on this list over the next couple of days to make sure the new version is working properly. If so, then I'll probably start moving all the existing python.org mailing lists over to it (once I've verified our sysadmins are actually backing up the Ultra2). So you guys are the guinea pigs for the new changes. You should not notice any differences; the email addresses are unchanged, as are the URLs. You'll notice the new hostname leak in a couple of places (e.g. as URLs for the Mailman logo and the public archives), but those aren't important enough to fix at the moment. If you notice /anything/ strange going on, first try to email this list. If you suspect that the messages aren't getting through, email me directly at bwarsaw(a)python.org. Okay, have fun! -Barry

1 0

Changes working, and list moved
by bwarsaw＠python.org 12 Nov '99

12 Nov '99

Hey folks, the purpose of this message is twofold. First, it's to let you know that I feel pretty confident about the new changes, at least insofar as they system seems to be working pretty well. I don't yet know what impact, if any there will be on performance. Second, I've moved this mailing list to our new server so at least it should /seem/ faster (the new one is an Ultra2, the old one is a Sparc5). I'll be keeping an eye on this list over the next couple of days to make sure the new version is working properly. If so, then I'll probably start moving all the existing python.org mailing lists over to it (once I've verified our sysadmins are actually backing up the Ultra2). So you guys are the guinea pigs for the new changes. You should not notice any differences; the email addresses are unchanged, as are the URLs. You'll notice the new hostname leak in a couple of places (e.g. as URLs for the Mailman logo and the public archives), but those aren't important enough to fix at the moment. If you notice /anything/ strange going on, first try to email this list. If you suspect that the messages aren't getting through, email me directly at bwarsaw(a)python.org. Okay, have fun! -Barry

1 0