Mailman 3 March 2001 - Edu-sig

Re: [Edu-sig] Teaching Python instead of Java?
by Alan Gauld 13 Mar '01

13 Mar '01

>... Another problem with both C++ and Java is that math >cannot generally be performed on objects, True in Java. But C++ at least allows classes to be built to fully mimic(well very nearly :-) primitive types. Thus provided operator overloading has been done you can perform math and any other native operation on an object. Java with its simplified model prevents this except by using a mixture of methods and operators. And of course you'll need to implement a value class heirarchy of your own coz Jave doesn't have one... With C++ you get a much stronger OO model but at the expense of simplicity. In Java you get memory management but at the expense of a broken object model and only slightly reduced complexity. In Python you get everything, including simplicity at the expense of a little speed compared to C++! For teaching Python wins every time. Alan G.

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RE: [Edu-sig] Teaching Python instead of Java?
by Alan Gauld 13 Mar '01

13 Mar '01

>- It supports multiple programming paradigms: > procedural, modular, and object-oriented. And let's not forget functional programming too. Some students find functional concepts easier to absorb than OO! >'built on top of' procedural features (which are closer > to how the computer really works). Closer to most computers but not all. Symbolics workstations are optimised to work with Lisp and Dr David H???? built an OO based machine some time back for Linn Products which was all based on message passing at the hardware level. But I agree that most computers are stack based. >- It is an alternative to Java. It doesn't make > sense to teach everyone the same language It doesn't make sense to teach anyone Java except, maybe, as an alternative to C++. Java is an apalling language for a beginner being riddled with inconsistencies (although Java 2 is much better) and based on a pseudo OO design that positively encourages bad OO programming practices. Java is really a Class Oriented Design rather than Object Oriented. As Jeff stated earlier Python focuses on the principles with minimal distraction. Java is an acceptable language for large scale network programming. For teaching it stinks IMHO! Python isn't perfect, but it seems to be the best we have for now - and I include Ruby and Scheme... Alan G. Author of "Learning to Program" at: http://www.crosswinds.net/~agauld

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re: [Edu-sig] Teaching Python instead of Java?
by Arthinator＠aol.com 13 Mar '01

13 Mar '01

Mathias writes - >Sorry, it's not about machines at all. It is about formulating >computational solutions that people read, modify, extend, debug. >The machine comes last, and the point of high-level language is >to hide the machine. Totally. Period. Yes - the word machine was in Jeff's sentence >I question the "loop" part. You want to match the program organization to >the data organization. Loops hardly ever match, unless all your data are >linear (natural numbers, lists). XML is all about trees. No sound mind >should process them with loops. And students should be able to mainpulate >XML-like stuff after a few weeks or so with total ease. But XML wasn't, was it? >Why don't you compare Python with a true competitor such as Scheme? Good enough advice. Never heard much other than deep respect for Scheme - even when haunting Python lists. >For a new way to look at the world of high school computing, >see > http://www.teach-scheme.org/ >http://www.htdp.org/ Been there. Like programming languages. Agree with Kirby - the more the better. Don't like programming environments - for Scheme or Python. I should be your audience - a liberal artist with an intellectual curiosity about programming. But the limited time I have to devote to the pursuit I want use to learn programming, not orienting myself to an environment. What do you recommend to someone who wants to get at Scheme with the copy/cut/paste/run text editor of his choice. ART

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Re: Teaching Python instead of Java? (Jeffrey Elkner)
by Matthias Felleisen 12 Mar '01

12 Mar '01

Hi David! Thanks for your interest in exploring Python as an introductory programming language! I am a high school teacher who has been using Python to teach our intro course for two years now. I have never seen a better language for that purpose. The main aim when teaching students to program is to give them an understanding of the processes of thought and the underlying concepts used in getting a machine to follow their will. This is a daunting task, and no programming language could make teaching students to think logically easy. Sorry, it's not about machines at all. It is about formulating computational solutions that people read, modify, extend, debug. The machine comes last, and the point of high-level language is to hide the machine. Totally. Period. The best programming language in the world for teaching programming would be one that does not add any additional overhead to the problem of teaching students to understand variables, conditional branches, and loops. As a Python programmer yourself I'm sure you will understand when I say that Python does that better than any other language I know of. I question the "loop" part. You want to match the program organization to the data organization. Loops hardly ever match, unless all your data are linear (natural numbers, lists). XML is all about trees. No sound mind should process them with loops. And students should be able to mainpulate XML-like stuff after a few weeks or so with total ease. To be concrete about this, let's compare Python with Java. I agree with you that Java is a fine language (and it is definite improvement over C++ for beginners), but it can't compare with Python as a first language. Why don't you compare Python with a true competitor such as Scheme? It has the same advantages as Python, has been around much longer, is regular, and is already taught at hundreds of colleges and high schools. -- Matthias Matthias Felleisen Professor of Computer Science Rice University For a new way to look at the world of high school computing, see http://www.teach-scheme.org/ http://www.htdp.org/ "Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes." -- E. W. Dijkstra

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Raytressi - more relevant than I thought
by Arthinator＠aol.com 12 Mar '01

12 Mar '01

A closer look at Raytressi seems to indicate that it was developed collaboratively as a project at a French technical high school. The download includes a project report. My French is about as good as my C, so I can't make much out of it. But if my facts are right, it seems to me a bit of a milestone in Python's presence in secondary education, perhaps deserving mention on the edu-sig page, and being particularly well suited for use by others who might want to intergrate a raytracing into a math or programming curriculum. Seems to have used Boost to simplify the the C++ extension writing. Have been finally getting into that arena a bit, looking at CXX as part of my effort to understandf the VPython code. Came across Boost recently, which is presenting itself as a more powerful alternative to CXX - allowing, among other things, Python subclassing of C++ classes. But I digress - again. ART

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Online CompSci (py) course
by Walter G. Ludwick 11 Mar '01

11 Mar '01

I've just subscribed to this list at the suggestion of Jeff Elkner, whose text "How to think like a computer scientist (Python Version)" at http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/thinkCSpy/ quite impressed me -- so much so that i am working on a project proposal to develop a course for delivery in Online Distance Education mode, using this (or something like it) as a central text, and also incorporating groupware for online collaboration among students and tutors. I am a student (second year) in the MA-ODE (Open and Distance Education) program offered by Open University UK through the IET (Institute of Educational Technology); this project should help me to fulfill some of my academic requirements, and perhaps build a bridge to an interesting new career direction (i've been involved with commercial web development for awhile now, am playing with Zope and now looking at Python, but am NO programmer and don't ever expect to be one -- not in this life, anyway! 8-). As part of my "due dilligence," i've a question that i'm hoping this community might help me to answer: Has anyone ever offered a course based on the aforementioned text (or any other derivatives of the original text by Allen Downey), or any course based on the Python language, in Online/ DistanceEd mode? Any references, however obscure, would be most appreciated. Thanks for your attention to this. |/|/alt Walter Ludwick wgl4(a)student.open.ac.uk

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Python raytracing
by Arthur_Siegel＠rsmi.com 11 Mar '01

11 Mar '01

As the subject as come up before, thought there might be some interest in : an opensource raytracer with extensive Python scripting support - a Python/Tk scripting environment at: http://raytressi.free.fr/ Have not had a chance to do much with it, but looks real promising. ART

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Online CompSci course
by Jeffrey Elkner 11 Mar '01

11 Mar '01

Hello again, Walter! On 09 Mar 2001 10:14:49 +0000, Walter G. Ludwick wrote: > OK, Jeff; per your request (appended below), i'll subscribe to the > edu-sig list and migrate this thread over there. I'm a bit reticent about > mixing it up w/ all the Python techs in that forum (i have browsed the > archives enough to know that i'd be out of my depth in most of the > discussion on that list), but i can appreciate the need to widen the > circle of involvement without making a human mail repeater of you :-) Please don't be intimidated by the past traffic on the list. The list was originally set up to discuss projects like yours, and the absense of such discussion is due mostly to the fact that the needed projects didn't exist. You are looking into changing that, so getting things going on the list is important! ;-) > Hey: i just want you to know how much i appreciate your finding time -- > in your hotel room late at nite, i guess -- to pursue this thread with me. > I've just been reading with interest about your activities at this year's > Python conference in the following article by Jeff Shelton (of > "ZopeNewbies" weblog fame): > > >> http://weblogs.userland.com/zopeNewbies/2001/03/08 > > "An instructor and two students from Yorktown High School in Arlington, > Virginia were the next to speak. They have been using Python to teach > programming skills, and are having incredible success. I had met one of > the students, Lex Berezhny, at last year's conference. As luck would have > it, I had the privilege of joining him for lunch twice this week. It's a > real head trip to sit with someone a third your age and realize that he > knows three times more than you about programming. > ... the instructor, Jeffrey Elkner, showed a video produced for the > purpose of convincing high school students they should study Python. Who > should appear in the video but Paul Everitt, Jim Fulton, and Guido van > Rossum!" << > > I think it's really cool that you are promoting the efforts of your > students in this way. > > And i'd love to get a copy of that video. I'm getting some "competing" > advice about building this course in connection with Phillip Greenspun's > "ARS Digita University" (http://aduni.org/), which i suspect might involve > some other language than Python (i.e. TCL/TK, or some other aspect of the > ACS architecture). I am personally less enthusiastic about this > alternative for a variety of reasons (i.e. software licenses that are > somewhat more problematic [software prescribed by this proposed course > must be free], risk of overbearing corporate influence, etc.), but i must > take an open-minded approach at this point. So if there's a way you can > tell me to get a copy of that video, i would greatly appreciate it. > Thanks again, Jeff! The video is far from finished. The good news is that we recieved the funding that we needed at the conference to take it to the next level. That said, I would be glad to send you a copy of what we have so far, but you need to understand that it is still rough at this point. Thanks again for your interest in Python! jeff

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Re: [Edu-sig] Teaching Python instead of Java?
by Jeffrey Elkner 11 Mar '01

11 Mar '01

Hi David! Thanks for your interest in exploring Python as an introductory programming language! I am a high school teacher who has been using Python to teach our intro course for two years now. I have never seen a better language for that purpose. The main aim when teaching students to program is to give them an understanding of the processes of thought and the underlying concepts used in getting a machine to follow their will. This is a daunting task, and no programming language could make teaching students to think logically easy. The best programming language in the world for teaching programming would be one that does not add any additional overhead to the problem of teaching students to understand variables, conditional branches, and loops. As a Python programmer yourself I'm sure you will understand when I say that Python does that better than any other language I know of. To be concrete about this, let's compare Python with Java. I agree with you that Java is a fine language (and it is definite improvement over C++ for beginners), but it can't compare with Python as a first language. Visit: http://www.ibiblio.org/obp and compare the Java version of "How to think like a computer scientist" with the Python version in terms of length of the code examples. Here is hello world from the Java version: class Hello { // main: generate some simple output public static void main (String[] args) { System.out.println ("Hello, world."); } } Here is the Python version: print "Hello, world." The important thing here is that Java syntax places a great deal of extra requirements on the learner before they can even begin to program. This "syntactic noise" gets in the way of focusing on the problem at hand and makes it more difficult to teach programming concepts. It also raises the bar of entry into learning programming and limits those who can be successful at it. Python is good as a teaching language for the very same reasons that you are now using it to program, it permits you to focus on the problem at hand and doesn't get in your way. Finally, Python has another tremendous strength as an introductory programming language. It supports a large variety of programming styles very well. It is equally at home with proceedural programming and OOP. This is very important for an introductory language. One of the most interesting talks at the Python conference that I just attended was Eric Raymond's discussion of how he used Python to create a new configuration language for the Linux kernel. This was a problem that he described as best being solved with a language like Prolog, and he was able to do it with Python. Thanks again for your inquiry, and let me know if I can be of any further assistance to you. jeff elkner yorktown high school arlington, va On 11 Mar 2001 12:49:30 +0100, David Pettersson wrote: > Hi, > > I work as a teaching assistant at my local university, and we currently > teach Java only to our new students (Pascal was left a couple of years ago). > > Although Java is a nice language, I still feel that it is inappropriate to > teach new students (some of which have had no prior computer experience!). > > I have been using Python for a couple of years now, but it was far from my > first language (although one could say it is my primary language now :). > What I am wondering is if Python is a better alternative, and why if is so. > > Sincerely, > -- > David Pettersson Stardate [-30]6312.44 > dave(a)se.linux.org Public key available on request

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Re: [Edu-sig] In praise of VPython
by Markus Gritsch 08 Mar '01

08 Mar '01

Will Well wrote: > /*Tried to look at KineticsKit, but clicking the above URL gave message, "its missing and to contact you"(?) > wait your kind words and remain, I am sorry, my mistake - I moved the html-files into its own directory. The correct URL is http://stud4.tuwien.ac.at/~e9326522/KineticsKit/html/ Have fun, Markus

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