Mailman 3 February 2005 - Edu-sig

Re: [Tutor] what? (late nite entertainment) (*)
by Gregor Lingl 24 Mar '05

24 Mar '05

Now: early morning corrections ... Alfred Milgrom wrote: > Hi Gregor: > > Hard to work out what is what :) as there seems to be a typo in one > line of your code: > > if x[z]: x[z*z:n:z]=y[z*z:n:z] > > (At least it doesn't work on my machine with Python 2.2) > Yeah, I had the idea when playing around with some new features of Python 2.3, as I do sometimes late at night - before shutting down my computer. This one I found at: http://www.python.org/doc/2.3.3/whatsnew/section-slices.html and I looked for an example for use of "assignment with extended slices" ... > Also the subroutine breaks for n = 1 or less. > Maybe you need a line at the start to say > if n <2 : return [0] > what() was intended to generate all primes less than n. (In fact it's an implementation of the sieve of Eratosthenes). The bugs came not only from not beeing interested in primes less than 2 ;-) but also from beeing a little tired already. Sorry. I think the following version repairs that - and hopefully uses less obfuscating variable names (which in fact originally was part of the "riddle"): def primes(n): sieve, zeros = range(n), [0]*n sieve[:2]= 0,0 i = 1 while i*i < n: if sieve[i]: sieve[i*i:n:i]=zeros[i*i:n:i] i += 1 return [p for p in sieve if p] Regards, Gregor >

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Re: Edu-sig Digest, Vol 19, Issue 22
by Darren Payne 13 Mar '05

13 Mar '05

Joe, I am a high school teacher in Australia and I have kept right away from C / C++. I feel it is simply too hard @ high school level. I think we have "spoken" before? I have taught Pascal, VB, Python and Java - as core languages over the years. I have also taught Prolog, Haskell and Scheme LISP - to demonstrate alternative thinking patterns in programming. All programming at high school level, in my experince, suffers because the GUI in VB is so damn good! I tend to agree that it doesn't encourage the best coding skills in students ... however it does allow them to focus on getting results - relatively quickly - and with the graphical components which are important to them - (hold attention, motivate etc). Python IS a GREAT language to start out with ... but simply put, the lack of GUI means only the most committed students get anything out of it without alot of coercing from me. I read Kirby's work with interest - however my experience is teenagers just aren't interested in math. Rather it is a chore that must be endured, a minimum standard society requires us to attain. Java ... well is some regards good, but honestly in my opinion - vastly over rated. It has so much "gumph" in it that it takes students 9 - 10 weeks before they begin to feel comfortable with it and mostly in this time you lose the majority of them. Once again a VB like GUI is required. The whole code in this, compile here, run and then work out what's wrong puts lots of students off - even when you give them a decent IDE (I like JCreator, JGRASP or BlueJ if you want to focus on OO programming) I see a moderate number of students (always boys) each year who will definitely become programmers / study computer science. I encourage these kids to look at Python and Haskell - and they tend to be the sort of person who can look beyond the GUI and want to learn how to really program. For the remainder of students who have chosen IT more for general interest I use VB (last year, 2004, we did Python, console based programs are really boring!). This year I have changed and moved to Gamemaker. I have read huge amounts of material advocating programming games as a way to encourage kids to think - (analyse, synthesise, evaluate, plan, design, manage, communicate) ... AND I have never seen such enthusiasm for programming, smiles from ear to ear - even the girls love it! BTW Gamemaker written in Delphi - I think - and has its roots in Pascal. Hope this helps regards Darren --- edu-sig-request(a)python.org wrote: > Send Edu-sig mailing list submissions to > edu-sig(a)python.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, > visit > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > or, via email, send a message with subject or body > 'help' to > edu-sig-request(a)python.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > edu-sig-owner(a)python.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it > is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Edu-sig digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. High School Programming for Newbies (Joseph > Ehlers) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:39:56 -0600 > From: "Joseph Ehlers" <ehlersjp(a)msn.com> > Subject: [Edu-sig] High School Programming for > Newbies > To: <edu-sig(a)python.org> > Message-ID: > <BAY4-DAV26194BFD97580C48EFDAF8DA650(a)phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Dear Python Community, > > > > I joined the Python Edu-Sig about a year ago and > posed the question of what would be good for an > Introductory High School Programming course. Your > input guided my efforts and now my high school is > finally going to offer programming courses starting > next year; we currently do not offer any > programming. We have permission for two classes and > administration support for a third class a few years > down the road. At the moment the course offerings > are looking like this: > > > > 1.. The first semester class will probably be > Visual Basic. Two reasons for this: 1). The GUI > should hold students' attention quickly in this > elective class and, 2). Every other high school in > my metro area is offering Visual Basic. > 2.. The second semester class is looking like it > will be Python. Books are hard to find but I'm > looking at, "Python Programming for the Absolute > Beginner" by Michael Dawson, "Python Programming An > Introduction to Computer Science" by John Zelle, and > "How to Think Like a Computer Scientist Learning > with Python" by Allen Downey, Jeffrey Elkner and > Chris Meyers. Maybe I'll settle on one or a > combination of the three. > 3.. The next full year class will be AP Computer > Science Java (This class won't happen for a few > years however. I have to become more knowledgeable > before I tackle three big fish at once). > > > I have done a lot of research on this but I must > confess that since I am not a programmer that most > of the research results are over my head. My high > school is not turning out programmers; we are just > trying to expose students to computer science and > programming and to help them think logically through > problems. We are trying to prepare them for college > computer science. From my research, Python's > strengths seem to be: easy to learn, simple syntax, > fun, allows students to spend time thinking about > the problem versus fixing syntax, transitions nicely > into Java, and develops logical thinking. All that > sounds great, just what we are tying to accomplish > and I can't wait for the course. > > > > (I'm finally getting to my question.) Now some > people are telling me that we need to offer C++. > Help! I don't think I can fit more into the > curriculum and do justice to any one language. One > of our goals is to offer AP Computer Science Java in > the future and we want the students adequately > prepared for that language. What is the opinion of > the Python Edu-Sig community? Should we offer C++? > And if so, where would it fit into the curriculum? > > > > Thank you. This community was very helpful in the > past in steering me in the right direction. > (Another strength of Python). You are helping shape > new courses at the high school level. Your help is > greatly appreciated. > > > > Joe Ehlers >

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RE: [Edu-sig] python satacad: class 4
by Arthur 13 Mar '05

13 Mar '05

> -----Original Message----- > From: Kirby Urner [mailto:urnerk@qwest.net] > Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 10:46 PM > To: 'Arthur' > Cc: edu-sig(a)python.org > Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] python satacad: class 4 > > > It 's moer fun to fight, in some ways. but I gotta have better > > ammunition than you're giving me of late. > > > > Art > > I've got lots of ammo stockpiled, but you'd need to dig for it. > Geocaching, > ya know -- fun sport. > > Kirby > Stockpiling WMI. Should have known. Art

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Re: visual programming
by Christian Mascher 02 Mar '05

02 Mar '05

Hi, why is it that delphi isn't mentioned very often in this context on this list? At least in german high-schools delphi is the strongest competitor with java (and a share of python and other exotica). I know it is not free, but you can download it for private use from borland and it certainly is a very sophisticated visual environment plus a fullblown objectoriented language. It is amazingly easy to use, even if you don't like pascal (I don't). And the compiler is very quick. I sure prefer Python, but if I have to choose between Java and Delphi/Kylix I don't know. The delphi-ide takes away much of the stupid syntax-teaching-chore - which tends to be a much smaller problem with Python. With three 3/4-hours a week I actually shouldn't have the time to teach real programming (the syntax stuff), ideas are more important. Thus my interest for tools which get out of the way. Of course the problem with delphi is: can you interest your students for the behind-the-scenes-stuff (for instance: how the GUI works), if the program is already a "finished" GUI right away? And: when forced to use Delphi, I miss IDLE and the simple print statement most. For examining algorithms this is simply the best. Any one else used/teached with Delphi? Christian Kirby wrote: > Also, on the GUI front, I think a nice compromise, if you're not wanting to > code up inside of Tk (e.g. with John's graphics.py) or wx, is to do cgi and > use the browser as your GUI. > > Even with a whiz bang GUI, there's still a question: what does your program > *do*? i.e. what's the GUI about? One needs at least *some* guts behind the > cosmetics. > > As a FoxPro programmer, I know the appeal of dragging widgets from palettes > the Microsoft way. > > Speaking of FoxPro, I'd choose VFP over VB any day for teaching.

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Re: [Edu-sig] How do I import from __future__ at startup?
by Laura Creighton 28 Feb '05

28 Feb '05

Go to http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig Go to the very bottom, where it says: 'Edu-sig Subscribers'. Find yourself in the subscribers list if you cannot remember what you subscribed as, and click that, or type it in -- if you can remember -- with your email address. You will end up at a nice page, but you will need your password to enter. If you remember that, fine. If not, have your password mailed to you. Remember that it will come to the address where you subscribed, so if that isn't where you are now, you will have to log into that account to get your mail with your password. Then, equipped with your password you can hit the unsubscribe button. Good luck, mail me if you still have trouble, Laura In a message of Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:05:50 +1100, "Ken Dobson" writes: >Hi > >I joined the list to demonstrate the wonderful benefits of such a list to >our organisation, but I don't know how to unsubscribe. > >HELP!!! > >Ken :o) > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Guido van Rossum" <gvanrossum(a)gmail.com> >To: "Christian Mascher" <christian.mascher(a)gmx.de> >Cc: <edu-sig(a)python.org> >Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 9:59 AM >Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] How do I import from __future__ at startup? > > >> > I want division always to be imported from __future__ at startup. >> > >> > Putting >> > from __future__ import division >> > in a file sitecustomize.py doesn't work (which I think is >> > counterintuitive). Do I have to use PYTHONSTARTUP variable? Is there >any >> > way at all? >> > >> > I searched google and python.org but didn't find a quick answer to th >is. >> > Perhaps somebody can help me out? >> >> $ python -Qnew >> Python 2.3.4 (#2, Aug 6 2004, 10:37:58) >> [GCC 3.2.2 20030222 (Red Hat Linux 3.2.2-5)] on linux2 >> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >> >>> 1/2 >> 0.5 >> >>> >> >> -- >> --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) >> _______________________________________________ >> Edu-sig mailing list >> Edu-sig(a)python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >Edu-sig mailing list >Edu-sig(a)python.org >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig

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How do I import from __future__ at startup?
by Christian Mascher 27 Feb '05

27 Feb '05

Hello all, I managed to do this once, but I forgot. I want division always to be imported from __future__ at startup. Putting from __future__ import division in a file sitecustomize.py doesn't work (which I think is counterintuitive). Do I have to use PYTHONSTARTUP variable? Is there any way at all? I searched google and python.org but didn't find a quick answer to this. Perhaps somebody can help me out? Thanks, Christian

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Re: [Edu-sig] High School Programming for Newbies
by M Holthouse 26 Feb '05

26 Feb '05

Joe's email got me thinking about the difference between "programming" and "computer science" courses at the high school level. I teach a one semester "Intro to Computer Science" elective, and then organize independent study programming projects for those who want to take the AP Java course the following year. The CS course is loosely based on the Dale & Lewis "Computer Science Illuminated" text, and I like the approach of progressing through * binary data representation (since it ties in some of their useless math - 2^n, log base 2, etc), * digital logic (with Boolean algebra and building with modules), * simple computer architecture illustrated with a machine language simulator, * assembly language with the PEP7 simulator introducing conditionals and very simple loops (which also touches on addressing and memory management), * C as a "higher level language" with data types and more complex looping * Python for "real programming", including primitive graphics with Zelle's package ...and then an overview operating systems, databases, networks, and AI This is an elective targeted mostly at juniors, but due to our relatively small size (800 students) and various scheduling constraints, I get a variety of students, many of whom are not dying to learn this stuff. Our goal is not to make them programmers in 20 weeks, but to give them a reasonable overview of the field so they can decide if they want to pursue (parts of) it more, and regardless of that make them more intelligent users of computers, better able to work with "computer people". The mix of other topics also lets some of the kids who are not natural programmers get their legs under them before jumping into the programming deep end and feeling left behind. Although not intentional, the progression of languages ends up being a real sales pitch for Python ("Wow, this is easy!"), and many of the programming-oriented students end up doing a final project with pygame. I've had students who later had to deal with C++ tell me they were happy to have had the brief (~2 week) intro to C, and often those who end up taking a Java course appreciate having been exposed first to other languages so they're not intimidated by the rather cryptic magic overhead of Java. Object-oriented purists object to this bottom-up approach, of course, but I find that the digital logic section where we build one bit adders and then replicate and assemble them to build 16-bit versions, and similarly, turn gobs of SR flip-flops into simple memories is a great way of introducing modularity and encapsulations, perhaps because it's less abstract than the top-down software focused approach. There's more info up on my class web site westwood.k12.ma.us/~mholthouse; I wonder if anyone has some experience with both approaches and has any experience to share? -Mark Holthouse

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Re: High School Programming for Newbies (Joseph Ehlers)
by Andy Judkis 25 Feb '05

25 Feb '05

Hi Joe et al, I've been reading this list for a month or so now, and was about to write my own introductory email, when your message came along, giving me a good opportunity to throw in my 2 cents. My background: I was an engineer in the telecomm and computer industries for over 20 years, including the last 5 or so programming in Java. My previous employer, an optical switch vendor called Tellium, closed its doors last year, and I made a long-contemplated move into teaching high school. I now teach a course called Computer Applications II to 10th graders at a "career academy" in Monmouth County, NJ. It's like a magnet school, for kids who are interested in careers in the health occupations. The school is competitive to get into, and the kids are generally bright, with no real discipline issues at all. I'm -very- fortunate to be starting my teaching career there. I was given carte blanche to make my own curriculum, and I chose to make it a sort of "serious computer literacy" course, basically teaching stuff I think is interesting and/or important. We learn some things about hardware and operating systems, some history of computers and the Internet, a fair bit of HTML and CSS (actually writing the tags, not using a WYSIWYG tool), a tiny bit of PHP, a bit of database and SQL . . . and some Python. The course is a 90 minutes a day, 5 days a week, for the semester. It's a required course, not an elective, so there's no self-selection of the students. Some are naturally enthusiastic about the subject, but many are not. I had no previous Python experience, and I'm not sure when or how I stumbled on it on the web -- but I read a bit and it seemed like a good fit. This past fall was the first time this course was offered. As things worked out, we had about 3 1/2 weeks for Python. I tried to give the kids at least a taste of it, and was only partially successful. I got some of my ideas and approaches from the Dawson book, and I liked it a lot. If I was going to teach an entire Python course in high school, I would be happy to use it. The most important thing is that it's -fun-. I got a desk copy of the Zelle book partway through the semester, and it looks to be more appropriate than Dawson for building the intellectual base for further work in the field -- certainly a worthy goal, but maybe better for college. You could do a lot worse than to start off with the Dawson approach and mix in material from Zelle once the fun factor has been clearly established. Another interesting book to look at is "Introduction to Computing and Programming in Python: A Multimedia Approach" by Mark Guzdial, which looks like it might split the difference somewhat -- more visual than Zelle, more intellectual than Dawson. It teaches Python (actually Jython. . . ) by using it to manipulate images and sounds, in a programming environment called JES. My original plan for our Python unit was to base it on the Livewires materials, but that immediately proved to be unworkable. It seemed to presume a level of willingness to dig in and figure things out that I just couldn't get from them -- and I think my kids are a bit above average in that area. Maybe the kids who sign up for the Livewires camp are already well-inclined towards programming? Maybe there's a lot more to the course than what's in the handouts on the web? I'd be interested to know more about how it's run, if anybody can tell me more. What I ended up doing for the unit was to use the "guessing game" problem, much as it was in the Livewires course, to get some of the basics of variables, looping, and branching down -- but I had to walk the kids through it, repeating things many times. We also used the Livewires module to do a little bit of very primitive graphics and animation. And that's all we got through. No lists, no dictionaries, no file I/O, no objects. . . And even then, a substantial minority of the kids (maybe 20%) still didn't really "get it" very well. A handful of kids totally got it and loved it, and I practically begged them to get the Dawson book and go on on their own. Obviously, your mileage will vary. I'd be interested to know a little more -- is your class an elective? What grade level? Best wishes, Andy Judkis ajudkis(a)verizon.net

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DrPython, redeaux
by ajsiegel＠optonline.net 25 Feb '05

25 Feb '05

I had checked in with DrPython early in its development cycle, and I know it to be prominently listed in the edu-sig page write-up of Python IDE's for with an educational slant. I had the opportunity to re-acquaint myself with it and its progress recently. I think it worth mentioning here for those who have not had the opportunity to have a look, that it a very actively developed project, led by folks working in the educational field. Well done, the essentials one would hope to find simply laid out, stable (even runs VPython scripts flawlessly), easily extensible in Python through an accesible API. Relies on and leverages off of what is available in wxPython, Developing an active user community, including something brewing with it at the U of Toronto. I am concluding that it to be the IDE I will recommend for use with PyGeo. About the lead developer: """ About Daniel Pozmanter I am a graduate of the University of Massachusetts, Amherst. I hold a degree in Cognitive Science (BS. Magna Cum Laude). For the last two years of my undergraduate career, I taught Philosophy, Rhetoric, and Civics at a local alternative high school. This school, North Star, allows its students to take charge of their academic careers. This allows them the flexibility to approach their middle and high school years with the joy and focus of a college student. (In fact, many of the students take courses at the local colleges and universities). """ Art

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High School Programming for Newbies
by Joseph Ehlers 25 Feb '05

25 Feb '05

Dear Python Community, I joined the Python Edu-Sig about a year ago and posed the question of what would be good for an Introductory High School Programming course. Your input guided my efforts and now my high school is finally going to offer programming courses starting next year; we currently do not offer any programming. We have permission for two classes and administration support for a third class a few years down the road. At the moment the course offerings are looking like this: 1.. The first semester class will probably be Visual Basic. Two reasons for this: 1). The GUI should hold students' attention quickly in this elective class and, 2). Every other high school in my metro area is offering Visual Basic. 2.. The second semester class is looking like it will be Python. Books are hard to find but I'm looking at, "Python Programming for the Absolute Beginner" by Michael Dawson, "Python Programming An Introduction to Computer Science" by John Zelle, and "How to Think Like a Computer Scientist Learning with Python" by Allen Downey, Jeffrey Elkner and Chris Meyers. Maybe I'll settle on one or a combination of the three. 3.. The next full year class will be AP Computer Science Java (This class won't happen for a few years however. I have to become more knowledgeable before I tackle three big fish at once). I have done a lot of research on this but I must confess that since I am not a programmer that most of the research results are over my head. My high school is not turning out programmers; we are just trying to expose students to computer science and programming and to help them think logically through problems. We are trying to prepare them for college computer science. From my research, Python's strengths seem to be: easy to learn, simple syntax, fun, allows students to spend time thinking about the problem versus fixing syntax, transitions nicely into Java, and develops logical thinking. All that sounds great, just what we are tying to accomplish and I can't wait for the course. (I'm finally getting to my question.) Now some people are telling me that we need to offer C++. Help! I don't think I can fit more into the curriculum and do justice to any one language. One of our goals is to offer AP Computer Science Java in the future and we want the students adequately prepared for that language. What is the opinion of the Python Edu-Sig community? Should we offer C++? And if so, where would it fit into the curriculum? Thank you. This community was very helpful in the past in steering me in the right direction. (Another strength of Python). You are helping shape new courses at the high school level. Your help is greatly appreciated. Joe Ehlers

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