Mailman 3 April 2006 - Edu-sig

HTConsole
by Ian Bicking 02 May '06

02 May '06

Thinking about some of these discussions, I decided to explore building a Python console app, available as a web page. No sandboxing; it's intended to be run on localhost. It's still pretty rough and doesn't have a ton of neat features. The file management is pretty weak, and doctesting is just stubbed out. Anyway, you can get it with: easy_install HTConsole Then run "htconsole" and a web page should pop up for your interactive pleasure. The ideal is to make Python objects live and editable through the web page. For instance, if you define a function it will be listed with its body in the web page, and you can edit the function in place. Unfortunately it's easy to run out of room, so I might have to explore other ways of displaying information. Also, there's a bunch of problems I've had -- like how to get the body of functions, and how (if it is possible at all) to update a function in place, just to start with. But anyway, with some imagination maybe you can see what's interesting about it, and maybe point out directions for further work that might be more fruitful from your own perspective. -- Ian Bicking | ianb(a)colorstudy.com | http://blog.ianbicking.org

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CFC: An Atlas of Linguistic Graphs
by giandomenico.sica＠polimetrica.com 30 Apr '06

30 Apr '06

Call for Cooperation An Atlas of Linguistic Graphs I'm a researcher in graph theory and networks. I'm working about a project connected with the theory and the applications of linguistic graphs, which are mathematical structures useful to represent languages and consequently to manage the organization of data in different kinds of scientific fields. At the present I'm developing an application of these graphs to medicine, specifically related to the ontology of clinical diseases. And now to the purpose of this message, which is to ask if someone in this list can be interested in collaborating with me about the construction of an open source software useful to represent, to analyse and to compare linguistic graphs. I've developed the project but don't have the necessary programming skills to proceed with the creation of the code. The software would be distributed in public domain and the collaboration is free and voluntary. I really hope that someone can be interested. In the case, please feel free to contact me by using my private e-mail address. I'll be pleased to send the complete documentation related to the project. Really many thanks. All the best, Giandomenico Sica Faculty of Philosophy Leiden University giandomenico.sica(a)polimetrica.com Publications http://www.polimetrica.com/polimetrica/view/people/Sica,_Giandomenico.html 1st World Congress and School on Universal Logic http://www.uni-log.org

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Re: [Edu-sig] Don't kids program anymore?
by Radenski, Atanas 30 Apr '06

30 Apr '06

Darren Payne wrote: > Re programming - kids want to PLAY GAMES most of all! > Many would like to program their own games ... but do > not wish to put in the time/ effort neccessary to > develop the level of skill required. It takes between one and three years to develop a commercial game. Students who take on game programming can be soon disappointed because they are likely to produce games that look really primitive in comparison to their favorite commercial games. Many students who thought that they may create real games are eventually destined to be disappointed with the actual products of their game programming experience. > In addition, programming ... as many of us in this > list know it ... is primarily CONSOLE BASED - by this > I mean you spend alot of time entering text on a > screen to run the thing to get more text on the screen >- BORING BORING BORING ... FOR MODERN KIDS! I disagree, particularly when it comes to college/university level students. Text based programming (meaning no GUIs, no graphics) can be very satisfying and rewarding with contemporary college/university students. First, the instructor needs to pick up interesting problems that make sense on their own. Forget about 'write a program to calculate this meaningless expression, because it is a good learning exercise'. Have students do something that they can understand and that makes some sense to them (such as money-related calculations, for example, or a text-based game). It must be something students can manage within a reasonable time interval (such as one class period). The most important features of text-based programs are (1) that students can succeed with them after having applied a reasonable effort and (2) that students can understand then (i.e., be in control while succeeding). This is what motivates everyone best: (1) succeeding - while doing something that makes some sense - and (2) being in control while succeeding. Text-based programs in Python are good to start this process. Such programs prepare well students for GUIs and graphics. In my Python First courses (http://studypack.com) students start with meaningful and manageable text-based labs and end with some GUIs and graphics. Almost all succeed in their labs and understand what they are doing in the process. One Python First student (in a class taught by a colleague) told me recently that such text-based Python programs actually are helping him understand and manage mathematics better. This statement came to me as a very pleasant surprise. > Like I said at the start kids want games, fun and > multimedia - colour, music and animation / video We should not underestimate our students (particularly at the college/university level) by thinking that only color, music, animation/video, and games can attract them to programming and computer science. This would be wrong. The vast majority of students are willing to learn and understand programming and computing. Really, they are. They are NOT some lazy folks who would not come to class if we do not try to entertain them with multimedia and games. They will come to class if we entertain them with (1) a chance to really *succeed* in meaningful and manageable class activities and (2) a chance to *be in control* and understand while succeeding. GUIs and graphical games are probably not such activities in entry-level studies. Text based programming in Python (which reduces the syntax clutter to a minimum) can serve this purpose really well. > regards > Darren Payne Great post, Daren. Thank you. I understand you share experience with HS students. I wrote of my college/university experience - thing can be somewhat different at HS, I do not know. Atanas Atanas Radenski radenski(a)chapman.edu http://www.chapman.edu/~radenski http://studypack.com Digital courses for the net generation

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Pythonic Mathematics (session 2)
by kirby urner 30 Apr '06

30 Apr '06

CLASS: Saturday Academy: Pythonic Mathematics LOCATION: Portland State University, Neuberger Hall TIME: 10 AM - 12:30 PM While I'm at it, and while the memories are still fresh, I'll chronicle what happened in class yesterday. First, parking was difficult. PSU has two parking structures but I picked the wrong one, and wasted 15 minutes finding it was full, plus got caught going the wrong way in a narrow driveway and so on. Finally found meter parking with but minutes to spare. Broadway door to Neuberger was locked, had to go around. Elevator. Math computer lab. On time, believe it or not. Student peers, being dropped off by their parents, had similar problems, but all arrived, to find fractals being projected out of video.google.com, followed by a short explanation of same, with emphasis on the simplicity of the rule behind Mandelbrot's set: z = z*z + c. One of the fractal students took that on in IDLE later, preassigning c, setting z at 0+0j, and running forward, time and again, each time with a different c. Then I showed Warriors of the Net, which got quite a few laughs, but also respect for its close dissection of TCP/IP. Router, router switch, proxy server, firewall, ports... all in the form of an easy-to-parse cartoon. After it was over, I switched off the projector (means house lights down, as the infrared remote can't cut through flouresence), rolled up the screen, and discussed the difference between two flavors of IP: TCP versus UDP. I also talked about SMTP, FTP, NNTP and HTTP as examples of port-associated services. We dissected a packet, in theory at least. Then I forget the exact transition, but my next topic involved my longstanding augmentation of spatial geometry with a Fuller hierarchy based, sphere packing approach. That led us to Encyclopedia of Integer Sequences, with the link being cuboctahedral numbers (this probably makes little sense if you haven't gone through my orientation, or one like it). Then it was dive into IDLE, import sys and sys.path.append('long string into My Documents') and a snack break. The rest of the class was spent by Pythonic Maths students exploring topics of their own choosing, picking from the list below (this is a verbatim transcript of what I typed out in IDLE during the break, and projected): """ Kirby Urner Projects: ==== Number sequences: triangular, square, cuboctahedral numbers Write short functions (or generators to be fancy) that return sequences, such as the triangular numbers: 0, 1, 3, 6, 10... ==== Rational Number class: start work on a rational number with a numerator and denominator, that will add and multipy fractions e.g.: >>> myrat = Rat(2,3) >>> myrat (2/3) >>> myrat * myrat (4,9) === Fractal Geometry. Compile bookmarks for "Argand Diagram" and "multiplying complex numbers". Figure out how to implement z = z**2 + c in Python, where z starts as (0,0) and c can be any complex number. === Volunteer to help with someone with any of these. """ Most of the peers chose the number sequences, as this was the easiest on ramp to beginning Python (writing a few functions, getting the hang of the editor versus shell experience, import and reload). Here's sort of what their polys.py would look like by the end of the day (they just copied the generator, while a talked about what they were good for, and tri was our first example, jumping off from the aforementioned Encyclopedia). def tri(n): return n * (n + 1) / 2 def square(n): pass # most of 'em had a working version def cubocta(n): """ 1,12,42,92,162... """ if n == 0: return 1 else: return 10 * n * n + 2 def fib(a,b): while True: yield a a,b = b,a+b One advanced student started whipping out Rational Number code, consulting the internet, fingers flying. I showed him Guido's GCD around the time he was wrestling the prime factors, trying to think how to reduce after two rationals __add__. And one fractals-loving guy dove into z = z*z + c, as recounted above (I drew and Argand Diagram and suggested he develop a visual sense of how two complexes multiply -- a self-study topic). I'd do lower voiced lectures with a corner, rove between stations. But the main thing was to get students alone with the snake, working their charms. This is more likely to lead to home experimentation, i.e. there's no sense that a teacher must be present. Learn on your own, teach yourself. That's not a burden, but a freedom and a right. Then parents started showing up, some clearly already pleased with the results of session one. One parent expressed gratitude that the high tech sector is behind an education initiative for this age group. Twenty three years and counting. I'm a latecomer of course, and a proud standard bearer already. Per thread here, I encouraged kids to email their .py files to themselves over a web account, so even if the local hard drives got wiped (as sometimes happens in computer labs), we'd be set to go forward. I told one parent my parking woes and she advised me of the two garage situation, plus hoped I'd in future take full advantage of PSU faculty parking privileges. Kirby

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Re: [Edu-sig] Don't kids program anymore?
by Darren Payne 30 Apr '06

30 Apr '06

note that even the geeks?those > who voluntarily choose > to major in hard sciences?enter university never > having programmed a > computer. When I was in grade six, the Commodore PET > came out, and I > jumped at the opportunity to learn how to program > it. Now, evidently, most > high school computer classes are about Word (tm) and > Excel (tm). Is this a > bad thing? Should we care?" Do you think the desire > to program computers > has declined in the younger generations? If so, what > reasons might you > cite as the cause?" I am not surpised at this. I have noticed this trend for at least three years now. Kids (in Australia at least) are into multimedia and GAMES. They can see the importance of being a competent user of technology - hence the growth in more general ICT (information & communications technology) elements in all subject areas. THis should not be denigrated - it is a simple fact of life in our modern information age. Re programming - kids want to PLAY GAMES most of all! Many would like to program their own games ... but do not wish to put in the time/ effort neccessary to develop the level of skill required. In addition, programming ... as many of us in this list know it ... is primarily CONSOLE BASED - by this I mean you spend alot of time entering text on a screen to run the thing to get more text on the screen - BORING BORING BORING ... FOR MODERN KIDS! THis is why so many schools (once again in Australia) teach VB. THe VB GUI is sooo good and allows students to create REAL LIVE Windows programs with pull down menus, dialogue boxes etc with very little effort (and no understanding). But even this is putting many kids off know - a - days - the kids don't like the "business world" feel of it all or the preponderance of business problems that many teachers tend to favour (yes me too :)). Like I said at the start kids want games, fun and multimedia - colour, music and animation / video. I tried to get a class into PyGame two years ago - but even this requires such a large amount of background skill and knowledge. Since then I have moved to GameMaker (take a look and you will see why kids love it! gamemaker.nl). I said on this list about two or three years ago - Python (and all "fringe" languages) need to become like VB in terms of the IDE - if it doesn't it simply will not be taken up in schools. On a separate tack - I have TWO students in the whole school of 960, who are now in yr12, who just love to program and want to learn everything they possibly can about programming. I can show these kids any language and they go for it wholeheartedly simply because they have a passsion for this area of human endeavour. In yr7 they were into basic, blitzbasic and darkbasic - over the years I have encouraged their development in Python, Haskel and Prolog ... and in every one of these they know far far more than I ever will. regards ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- regards Darren Payne Hurlstone Agricultural High School Ph: 9829 9222 Fax: 98292026 ____________________________________________________ On Yahoo!7 360°: Your own space to share what you want with who you want! http://www.yahoo7.com.au/360

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Slashdot article: Do Kids Still Program?
by Paul D. Fernhout 29 Apr '06

29 Apr '06

From: http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/04/28/2236239&threshold=2 "From his journal, hogghogg asks: "I keep finding myself in conversations with tertiary educators in the hard sciences (Physics, Astronomy, Chemistry, etc.) who note that even the geeks—those who voluntarily choose to major in hard sciences—enter university never having programmed a computer. When I was in grade six, the Commodore PET came out, and I jumped at the opportunity to learn how to program it. Now, evidently, most high school computer classes are about Word (tm) and Excel (tm). Is this a bad thing? Should we care?" Do you think the desire to program computers has declined in the younger generations? If so, what reasons might you cite as the cause?" Lots of discusssion related to the themes of edusig and CP4E. --Paul Fernhout

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Re: [Edu-sig] DocTest Quiz: working local solution!
by Andre Roberge 29 Apr '06

29 Apr '06

On 4/23/06, Jeffrey Elkner <jeff(a)elkner.net> wrote: > On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 18:00:27 -0500, Michael Tobis <mtobis(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >I think I've got a realistic design for a doctest-driven beginners' > >programming courseware suitable for presenting HHTLCSpy - type > >materials that can be put together in a week or so with my level of > >skill. (Or a half-day if I let Ian B in on it... ) That week probably > >won't happen before early June, but I think I'll have something of > >immediate interest to you early enough in the summer that we can > >develop real curriculum in time for next fall. > > Thanks, Michael! I've written up a brief description of the tool I'm looking for here: > > http://dc.ubuntu-us.org/projects/doctest-quiz.php > > and a briefer launchpad spec here: > > https://launchpad.net/products/cando/+spec/doctest-quiz For those interested, you will find attached a simple app that essentially does what Jeff described, albeit entirely on a single computer. (Thus, if you can run Python on that machine, you can run it via a web browser without sandboxing). It requires CherryPy. Here's what is required: 1. Download and install CherryPy. http://www.cherrypy.org/ 2. Save doctestquiz.py in the tutorial directory that comes with cherrypy (so you can use the default configuration file). 3. Run doctestquiz 4. Point your browser to http://localhost:8080/index 5. Have fun!

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Re: [Edu-sig] Shuttleworth Summit
by Radenski, Atanas 28 Apr '06

28 Apr '06

> -----Original Message----- > From: edu-sig-bounces(a)python.org [mailto:edu-sig-bounces@python.org] On > Behalf Of Winston Wolff [ ... del ... ] > But I think that we are often focusing in on little pieces > whereas we need to get a big picture first. Furthermore, I know as > computer scientist I naturally look at details and enjoy technical > solutions, whereas the system we are discussing is a human system: a > student, her environment, her peers, teachers, parents, principals. > The distinction is important but I often miss it because I love > concentrating on source code for long stretches at a time and lose my > perspective of the people involved. The critical thing is that any > software solution will be a tool to help one of these people do their > thing better. Very nicely said indeed. > Students [ ... del ... ] > - Students get excited about something and want to study it. -- 1. It seems to me that most people study because they have to, not because they are excited about it. For example, students are supposed to go to school and get education to end up with good jobs. Even when people get excited, most would procrastinate. Successful learning usually happens when the learner is bound by required activities, deadlines, and grading. (I am not saying that required activities guarantee good learning but they help.) Unfortunately, independent learning is a difficult process because most people do not seem to have the necessary self-discipline. We tend to procrastinate and postpone. I really want to learn Spanish so that I can go backpacking in Chile, I am very excited about this (I have been excited for years) and even bought texts and recordings; I started studying but cannot maintain the process because I am not pressed to (no schedule, no deadlines, no required activities, no grades). 2. Even when students study because they are required to, students are still *willing and ready to learn*. Getting them excited about the subject matter helps. However, what is crucial to keep them going is *success in what they are doing*. Who likes to fail? Normally nobody. We all like to succeed in what we are doing, no matter what we are doing. Thus, our students need to be given a chance to succeed. Making it through and succeeding is what really makes people excited. "I made it! I made it!" What can be more motivational than this feeling? It does not matter that much what exactly you are doing, what matters is that you succeed rather than fail. Do you like failing? Most people hate to fail. Students hate to fail - not necessarily in terms of grades (in a narrow sense) but in managing required activities in general. 3. Even when students succeed, they need to understand how they succeeded. (Imagine a student who made his GUI work but who does not actually understand event handling, for example.) To keep students motivated success in not enough. They need to *feel they are in control*. We try to entertain students too much sometimes. Games are entertaining, graphics is entertaining, GUIs are entertaining, etc. What is in fact entertaining and motivating is: (1) succeeding in what you are doing, and (2) being in control while succeeding. If students succeed and understand games, GUIs, or graphics, or anything else for that matter, they will be happy. It they make it through the required activities but are not sure if they understand it, they may not be as happy. If they fail, they will hate it, graphics, games, whatever. [ ... del ... ] What is it that makes Python a better educational language in comparison to other languages? It is not necessarily the possibility to program graphics or games or GUIs. What gives Python a real edge is the opportunity to design courses in which students (1) succeed in what you are doing and (2) understand what they are doing(i.e., are in control while succeeding). For some reasons, Python is better suited to achieve this than many other languages. At least this is what I believe in. Respectfully, Atanas Radenski mailto:radenski@chapman.edu http://www.chapman.edu/~radenski/ If you think you are boring your audience, go slower not faster -- Gustav Mahler

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One list or two?
by Michael Tobis 28 Apr '06

28 Apr '06

>From the edu-sig list I wrote: >> On the other hand, let me remind everyone that many people despair of >> this list because it spends too much time on impractical generalities. >> So I would add that we shouldn't mistake interesting conversations for >> progress. Many of the topics raised here are hard and deep but, at >> least for present purposes, still not very useful. >> I believe should keep the conversation germane to the intersection of >> Python and education, specifically, to the development of Python tools >> that are relevant to education. to which Kirby Urner replied: > to do some homework before sounding off and > acting foolish, the way Tobis does. There was general agreement among the attendees at the education BOF meeting at PyCon that a new list was necessary, so although my own presence is recent, my assertion was not unsupported. There has also been some discussion of dissatisfaction with the breadth of discussion here expressed since I have been following the list, notably including some strongly worded advice from Guido van Rossum recently. It happens that in response to this general agreement at PyCon, I set up such a list on Google Groups, with myself and Vern Ceder as owners and potential moderators, and there has been some traffic moving there. http://groups.google.com/group/edupython?lnk=oa Here is the announcement of that list again, as submitted by Anna Ravenscroft: === In order to facilitate small groups working on specific Python-in-Education projects, we have launched an edupython list on google groups (http://groups.google.com/group/edupython or edupython(a)googlegroups.com). We envision participation by people trying to coordinate work on the nuts and bolts implementation of a project, with frequent progress reports and requests for suggestions and comments coming back to edu-sig. The list developed as a result of a quite well-attended and enthusiastic BOF meeting at PyCon. This edupython list is not intended to replace edu-sig, which remains very strong for theoretical and philosophical discussions, and for getting input and suggestions from a wider group, but is also necessarily higher bandwidth. We invite anyone working on Python-related education projects to join the list. === For myself, I would prefer either that there only be one edu-sig list, and that it stay much more terse, but failing that, that the alternative edupython@googlegroups be linked from the edu-sig page on python.org so that newcomers or occasional contributors to the topic can make their own choice to read from or write to one or both. mt

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Phasing in Chaos
by kirby urner 28 Apr '06

28 Apr '06

One of the big challenges facing Pythonic Mathematics is how to successfully incorporate the whole topic of chaos mathematics, of which fractal geometry forms a part. This thread over on math-teach suggests one approach (i.e. mine). http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?threadID=1369616 This is the kind of stuff I link from my South Africa facing writings, as a guide to future archivists wanting to continue in this lineage I call Pythonic Mathematics. I think it's a very promising approach and look forward to more collaborations. Kirby

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