Mailman 3 June 2001 - Edu-sig

OT - Disney Learning - again
by Arthur Siegel 03 Jul '01

03 Jul '01

If I haven't yet clinched my reputation as a Usenet crank, this should do it. Again, minding my own business - watching the Sunday afternoon golf match. A new ad/announcement for Disney Learning Partnership with a URL ref - www.disneylearning.com To make a long story short, I register to get behind the scenes and there is essentially nothing there. Upcoming "events" listed are only in November and December - I expect 2000, but no way to tell. December 10 - Dr. Alan Kay. Next December, last December? I had already downloaded a Kay presentation. If the guy didn't have Visionary on his business card, you'd have to cart him off. Insanely pretentious presentation about the history of everything - the Gutenberg press, etc all ending in a pay-off of Goofy doing something on a squeak screen. It costs serious money for these TV ads. Little more surfing the site. It was December 10, *1999* - and is an *upcoming* event on the schedule. Probably in fact the one I looked at some time ago. *Today* they spent serious money promoting this hopelessly neglected site. What is the agenda here??????? ART

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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Interpreter on Mac
by Christopher Smith 23 Jun '01

23 Jun '01

pythonmac-sig(a)python.org writes regarding the now-available patch that fixes the Mac IDE: >Download it via http://www.cwi.nl/~jack/macpython.html and please let >me know wether it fixes the problem. >>> print "Hello, World! :-)" Hello, World! :-) Thanks, Jack. Two notes, too. 1) I am clearly not running Carbon (thanks for pointing out the obvious, Just): Python 2.1 (#92, Apr 24 2001, 23:59:23) [CW PPC GUSI2 THREADS] on mac 2) This pressing-end-kills-the-interpreter behavior is only partly bad. It only boots you out of the interpreter IFF the cursor is on the last line. If you have moved the cursor off the last line, pressing <end> moves you to the last line (and repeats the >>> prompt or else \n's the line you had been editing). My personal hand-tic work-around is to press the up arrow before pressing the <end> key. Could this be done through the software? Catch the <end> key and preface it with an up-arrow first? On the other hand, if it really is a ctrl-D that is being generated and for universal behavior you want the interpreter to quit at a ctrl-d then this isn't a good work around. Finally, thanks for the help. I've subscribed to tutor, edu-sig, and this group to help me learn the language b/c I am going to be teaching our school's first comp sci course next spring with Python. This is my week of intense preparation before other concerns have to take priority this summer. You've helped me make great returns on the investment. Whoever has put together the Windows package has done a great job, too. I helped my cousin who just graduated from HS get Python set up last night on her machine which runs windows. I was impressed with how out-of-the box it was *with identical documentation* (Language Ref, Tutorial, etc...) built into the archive. This is going to be a big plus when I have students who can set up Python at home under either Mac or Windows. /c ------------------------------------------------------------- Have you ever sung in Latin? The sounds are so nice to sing. Have you ever coded in Python? It's very much the same thing.

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RE: [Tutor] Re: [Edu-sig] RE: [Idle-dev] IDLE's save-before-run r equirement
by alan.gauld＠bt.com 22 Jun '01

22 Jun '01

> What would switching over to using Scintilla accomplish that > sticking with IDLE and continuing it's development wouldn't? In a word "Reuse". That means one editor to maintain for most of the Python IDEs. Add a feature to Scintilla and its pretty trivial for all the IDEs to pick up the new feature without having to reimplemnent it from scratch. Effort gets concentrated on the value add bits rather than the nitty gritty of text editing. At least that's the theory... In practice writing reusable solutions gets exponentially harder with the number of clients. Thus trying to please multiple consumers might just wind up stifleing the development of Scintilla! Personally my favourite approach to IDEs is that taken by the old HP Unix product - provide a configurable framework and let the user select their own editor/compiler/interpreter/debugger etc. The downside of this is that it restricts how much integration you can really have to how well integrated the selected tools are. GNOME etc should make this approach more viable long term. Alan G

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RE: [Tutor] [Edu-sig] [Idle-dev] IDLE's save-before-run requireme nt
by ROBINSON Julian 22 Jun '01

22 Jun '01

This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary Content-Type: text/plain > kbk(a)shore.net wrote > > 4. Very usable by relatively inexperienced people. > > IMHO IDLE should remain at roughly the (apparent) level of complexity it's > at > (or less?) to avoid reducing its usability for beginning/intermediate > programmers. > - As someone who's working through the tutorials IDLE is perfect. I don't need a fancy IDE to get the hang of the language. When I get enough experience to write large programmes then my need for an all singing & dancing IDE will increase, but until then...... - The set-up for IDLE is easy, I managed to do it first time. I downloaded JBuilder and this package took me ages to set up so that I could use it even halfway properly, this has put me off 'getting into' Java. Whereas after about 2 mins, following the clear instructions I was able to start entering Python code and see how the language worked, and have never looked back....... --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary Content-Type: text/plain; name="InterScan_Disclaimer.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="InterScan_Disclaimer.txt" . This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom they are addressed. If you received this email in error please notify the sender by return email or contact Oxford City Council's IS dept. 01865-252111. http://www.oxford.gov.uk . --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary--

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re : Python Shell - was: RE: IDLE's save-before-run r equirement
by Arthur_Siegel＠rsmi.com 21 Jun '01

21 Jun '01

>Well, the current IDLE is 0.8. So any difference in the Shell capability >between 0.5 and 0.8 are going to show up. And if VPython remains at 0.5 this >will become more of an issue over time. And if the Edu sig decides to do a >IDLE Tutorial fork then we are just making things worse, imo. I just can't >help feeling that these IDLE variants are not a very good thing because they >are complete forks and not just add-ons or plug-ins. On the other hand, you >are correct that the differences right now between the IDLE and VPython >shells is minor or possibly even nonexistent. I think that one right IDLE should certainly be the goal. As mentioned in the thread a number of times before, the only fundamental issue seems to be the 'single process' in the 'official' IDLE which makes it unusable for something like VPython. VPython bills its IDLE as having a number of "important enhancements" over the standard IDLE. Other than the processs issue , I for one cannot identify what they are, and don't know whether I would agree with their billing as 'important', or even enhancements if I did. We are perhaps at that point into a matter of taste, style and specialization for a specifc use. VPython's IDLE, for example, color syntaxes (I believe) VPython key words - certainly not appropriate for a general purpose IDLE. >From my perspective, anything IDLEish, that can spawn a new process, is a suitable environment for creating and running scripts - VPython or otherwise. The variants of different flavors of IDLE distributed under one name, is the real problem and confusion. Seems to me Gudio in effect owns that name. Guido should decide which code base gets to use that designation, through some mechanism. If there is a ViDLE distributed with VPython with specialized syntax highlighting and other modifications - that's fine. Among the beauties of IDLE is in providing the VPythons a code base for a custom IDE. Played with the concept myself on a much less ambitious scale with PyGeo at one point. But there is no reason I can see *not* to be avoiding the confusion of distributing something different under the same name. We are close to being there. The current VPython puts its IDLE into its own directory, rather than replacing tools/IDLE. Guido sounds like he is close to checking in the code that would make *the* IDLE useable for something like VPython. Maybe then Guido just needs to assert some naming conventions for IDEs derivative of the IDLE code base. And we're home. ART

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RE: [Tutor] Re: [Edu-sig] RE: [Idle-dev] IDLE's save-before-run r equirement
by alan.gauld＠bt.com 21 Jun '01

21 Jun '01

> But IDLE has a bunch of requirements that I don't think Scintilla can > provide. Possibly so, hence my comments about Scintilla being lumbered with an extra customer to appease and reuse being expensive, but... > is the Python Shell. Compare editing an interactive session in > PythonWin's console window with IDLE's Python Shell. I don't see much difference but confess to not using Pythonwin often - usually just for its superior debugger > as the module/file editor, meaning you get > proper syntax coloring, Seems OK to me > automatic indentation, Yes that works > call tips, Yes, > magic expansion; Wassat? > you get per-line syntax checking, Not sure how that differs from PW > whole-command editing, and And again wassat? > history Yes, got that too. > recall. In PythonWin's much more primitive console, it's very easy to > mess up the input or the output or confuse the auto-indenter. I can't say I've ever done that in eoither IDLE or PW but thats maybe again a reflection on how rarely I use PW... > I could be wrong about Scintilla not supporting this, but if it did, > why would PythonWin not use it for *its* console? I think it does from what I see. It looks identical to a normal edit window to me... Alan G Note I'm on Python V2.0 with winall inbstalled not the ActiveState version in case that makes a difference.

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Re: [Edu-sig] RE: [Idle-dev] IDLE "deemphasised"? Please notso...
by Arthur_Siegel＠rsmi.com 21 Jun '01

21 Jun '01

> >Maybe an excuse to slip VPython into the standard distro. But >certainly that's an issue to be left fully to the side at this point. > >ART >I don't know that you can "slip" VPython in as if it were just >another module. The standard library is just modules, but >VPython is more. And it includes Numerical Python, so if you >include VPython you've got Numerical as well. That's a huge >addition! (might as well throw in Zope while we're at it :-D). >Kirby Yeah - keep conveniently forgetting the Numerical issue. Now that folks are doing an Educational Resource distro (which I think is a great idea) - the issue pretty much goes away, as long as those of us interested try to help publicize its availability. Maybe the only issue that remains down the road is how pre-configured an Educational distro could or should be. ART

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RE: [Idle-dev] IDLE "deemphasised"? Please not so...
by Patrick K. O'Brien 21 Jun '01

21 Jun '01

I agree with these sentiments and am copying this message to the Edu and Tutor lists because I think the folks there are a good part of the demand that you mention below. --- Patrick K. O'Brien Orbtech "I am, therefore I think." -----Original Message----- From: idle-dev-admin(a)python.org [mailto:idle-dev-admin@python.org]On Behalf Of Tony J Ibbs (Tibs) Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 4:46 AM To: idle-dev(a)python.org Subject: [Idle-dev] IDLE "deemphasised"? Please not so... In Wesley Chun's thread on amending IDLE, Guido said: > The problem is that IDLE development has virtually come to a halt > -- I just can't find the time to work on it, and there are other > good development environments available. Mats Wichmann then said: > As Guido knows, I'm certainly interested in IDLE evolving, > because I find it a very handy learning tool - not just > for me; like Wesley, I try to teach some Python classes > from time to time. There may be "better" IDEs but I'm > not convinced I've seen one yet (for Python). And in my > particular situation, it HAS to be cross-platform, I'm > not going to fuss with two different IDEs in a classroom > situation (students get to choose Win2k or Linux). > > But I suspect most "serious programmers" don't really see > IDLE as being a "serious IDE" - at least I gather this > impression from comments on c.l.p, esp. from folks who come > from other (inferior?) languages where an IDE is essential to > maintaining any sanity, so they've evolved into quite sophisticated > tools. So I don't know if there'd be a whole lot of overall > enthusiam for doing a lot to IDLE. Whilst I understand all about not having time for things because there are other things to do (!), I do think it would be a pity if IDLE died away. It seems to me there is a serious place for a moderately decent editor that comes free with the Python disttribution, knows *about* Python, and uses Tkinter (i.e., is maximally portable). Whilst there might be *better* IDEs (in various senses of the word - heck, I use XEmacs for "normal" work, does that count?), there is *great* utility in having a reasonable editor that undestands Python up and running as soon as one has Python up and running (e.g., on Windows). After all, the alternative may well be Wordpad/Notepad. Other IDEs involve other work (to set up), or even money. And for some of us, each program coming in has to be paper-justified, so it may well not be worth the effort anyway, even for free code. If it helps, I'm satisfied with having an editor that understands Python layout, and provides some debugging and class browsing support - if that isn't a "proper" IDE I don't care (and I think I'm a moderately serious programmer - it's been what I get paid for for a while now). What do I actually want? Well, given Guido and co aren't going to do much with IDLE in the future, I'd vote to at least keep it around, and mention it as existing, and I'd hope that it might grow slowly via sourceforge. Just don't underestimate the demand for it. Tibs -- Tony J Ibbs (Tibs) http://www.tibsnjoan.co.uk/ "How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks." - Dorothy L. Sayers, "Gaudy Night" My views! Mine! Mine! (Unless Laser-Scan ask nicely to borrow them.) _______________________________________________ IDLE-dev mailing list IDLE-dev(a)python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev

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RE: [Tutor] Re: [Edu-sig] RE: [Idle-dev] IDLE's save-before-run r equirement
by Israel Evans 21 Jun '01

21 Jun '01

What would switching over to using Scintilla accomplish that sticking with IDLE and continuing it's development wouldn't? -----Original Message----- From: Guido van Rossum [mailto:guido@digicool.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 2:44 PM To: pobrien(a)orbtech.com Cc: Mats Wichmann; idle-dev(a)python.org; Python Edu SIG; Python Tutor Subject: Re: [Tutor] Re: [Edu-sig] RE: [Idle-dev] IDLE's save-before-run requirement > So what I would propose is a Scintilla-based (for lack of a > better alternative) IDE that is cross-platform (to the extent possible, but > at least Win and Linux and, hopefully, Mac), interactive, easy, helpful and > part of the standard distribution. I could help manage the process, but I'm > not up to the challenge of doing all the code. IDLE has most of the functionality (not code folding). Why start over when there's probably a person-year of work in IDLE? --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) _______________________________________________ Tutor maillist - Tutor(a)python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor

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RE: [Idle-dev] IDLE "deemphasised"? Please not so...
by Arthur_Siegel＠rsmi.com 21 Jun '01

21 Jun '01

The additional significance of IDLE to me has been that it is a full application developed in and distributed with Python. Serves as a reference point for "standard" Python syntax, style, documentation standards by the guy who should know - and an overall proof of something or other. All of which puts an additional burden on Guido. I thought it brave of him to put it out there. Could be expected he'd run into a lot of gun-slingers challenging him to a Python syntax quickdraw. On the other hand its great to see some movement off center. Some combination of the Guido and VPython IDLEs - where it looks like we're heading - seems to me an ideal soultion. Maybe an excuse to slip VPython into the standard distro. But certainly that's an issue to be left fully to the side at this point. ART Mats Wichmann then said: > As Guido knows, I'm certainly interested in IDLE evolving, > because I find it a very handy learning tool - not just > for me; like Wesley, I try to teach some Python classes > from time to time. There may be "better" IDEs but I'm > not convinced I've seen one yet (for Python). And in my > particular situation, it HAS to be cross-platform, I'm > not going to fuss with two different IDEs in a classroom > situation (students get to choose Win2k or Linux). >

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