Mailman 3 August 2003 - Edu-sig

re: Close, but no cigar
by Arthur 10 Aug '03

10 Aug '03

And I am afraid, there is one more *fact* I would like on the record. I went to the considerable trouble of creating, for Bruces benefit,a proto-type implementation, fully configured, with Inno Installer, of a stand-alone VPython in a runtime Python environment. In other words, an environment that Bruce could feel free to customize to his heart's content for whatever perceived needs of himself, his students, other people's students, etc. and etc. - without disturbing, in viral ways, anybody else's existing Python installation. And no instructions necessary. Didn't talk about it. Did it. Took time. Without grant funding. And while there was definite interest in this approach, based on clear comments from other professors on the list, Bruce never pursued it. To the extent that I have no reason to believe he even bothered to download what I had made available, to see what it did, and how it did it. Not to mention why. For the record. Art

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re: Close, but no cigar
by Arthur 10 Aug '03

10 Aug '03

>abundant experience with users new to Python shows that the >fewer the instructions the better The desperate need to avoid instruction, to students, in a University setting disturbs me bit. I can only hope he is no more than moderately successful at it. Art

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re: Close, but no cigar
by Arthur 10 Aug '03

10 Aug '03

>This is not the first time this scientist has insulted science with his >"data" - data which, under his version of the scientific method ,will >always unambigously support and confirm his petty prejudices and half->baked conclusions. And I am still pulling my punches. Please add "personal agendas". Thank you. Art

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re: Close, but no cigar
by Arthur 10 Aug '03

10 Aug '03

Bruce- >I've tried in various forums to explain what data these decisions are >based on, and I won't repeat all of that here. Me- >>I simply can't stomach to reply directly to Bruce's comments about the >>data" supporting his view - in light, among other things, of the div >>perator argument background, where his "data" seemed to be so >> >>influential. Sorry folks. Fuses blown. This is not the first time this scientist has insulted science with his "data" - data which, under his version of the scientific method ,will always unambigously support and confirm his petty prejudices and half-baked conclusions. I label my half-baked conclusions and petty prejudices "Zen". Gives me some wiggle room anyway. And leaves me in a position to say that perhaps I respect the scientific method and its significance more then do some scientists. And with the zeal of a convert. If anybody cares at all as to what all my screaming has been about for these years now. Art

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Re: [Visualpython-users] Close, but no cigar
by Arthur 10 Aug '03

10 Aug '03

>Bruce simply does not see any significance to the interactive prompt. >Incredibly. He states so repeatedly. All the more incredible, to me, because - particularly for teaching - VPython's ability to function directly at the interactive prompt is one of its more incredible features. I worked hard to reconfigure PyGeo, in its latest version. to be able to take full advantage of this capacity of VPython's. Simply took me a while to figure out how to do so. So the argument is not purely theoretical, and not purely as an observer. *I* want IDLE to start up interactively, and have every intention of overriding Bruce's override in a PyGeo distro. I simply can't stomach to reply directly to Bruce's comments about the "data" supporting his view - in light, among other things, of the div operator argument background, where his "data" seemed to be so influential. He knows full well he can support that "data" with two sentences of instructions to his students, to get them where we feels they need to be when opening IDLE. Rather than effecting all kinds of peoples who's needs are quite different (stating generously that Bruce correctly perceives the needs, and the importance of those needs, of his users). This is silly stuff, really. And always has been. But its hard to laugh. Art

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Close, but no cigar
by Arthur 10 Aug '03

10 Aug '03

Bruce Sherwood has released a new VPython for Python23. IDLE has always been the editor which is "supported" by Bruce for the purposes of his physics curriculum, so the integration of IDLEdev into IDLE for Python23 has provided an opportunity for the simplication of the VPython distribution on Windows. But despite the fact he is and has been content to have the vpython docs and demos reside under ...site-packages\visual, he still cannot use disutils for his Windows distribution. He takes advantage of the new ability to add the VPython help files as an *additional* resource to the IDLE help menu. Which is exactly why he is content to have the docs "buried" in ..\site-packages\visual\docs. The problem is that the config-main.def file which needs to be touched to accomplish this is in ../idlelib, not off the site-packages tree. So out of reach of bdist_wininst. The other customization he chooses to make is a desktop icon which has ..\sitepackages\vpython\demos as its "start-in" directory. Which is why he is content to have the vpython demos under ''\site-packages\visual\demos directory. But he can only do this with disutils if win32all is known to be installed. An assumption that Bruce cannot reasonably make. My criticism of the distribution (besides my previously stated discomfort about how Numeric is handled) is the fact that the icon placed on the desk-top is simply called "IDLE for Python" - no indication of it having been placed there by VPython, custom to its needs (as to the "start-in" directory. For a PyGeo distro (which relies on VPython), for example, it would be perfectly reasonable to expect that I would add reference to the PyGeo help files in the IDLE config files, rather than replace the reference to the VPython help files. It is not reasonable to expect me to live with a desktop icon to the one and only IDLE that points to the VPython demos as its start-in file. And expect the PyGeo user to fend for himself. But nor am I comfortable, or have any particular reason, to want to overwrite a VPython shortcut to IDLE. The VPython placed shortcut should be clearly named so that it is understood it is placed on the desktop by VPython, and the approproate icon to hit when firing up to work on VPython. And I can do the same as to PyGeo. I can't believe there is any technical issue involved, especially as it currently assumed we are both working with full-blown Windows installers. Bruce, Be reasonable on this. Please. Art

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fwd: [Distutils] custom install directory with bdist_wininst
by Arthur 08 Aug '03

08 Aug '03

PythonLabs, via Jeremy, seems to be on the case as to bdist_wininst. His wish list is actually much more modest than mine. He seems to only hope to be able to do a full distro off of the python tree. I (as the distributor) want to be able to identify what are libaries, and go to site-packages, and what are front-facing files (demos and docs, e.g.) and go to a configurable directory not necessarily on the python tree. *And* icons and start menu possibilites. The responses on the disutils list to Jeremy's feature inquiry were not very encouraging. He was basically advised to go with a full featured Windows installer. Which at least makes me feel better about coming to the same conclusion as to a PyGeo distribution - that I should not feel shamed in resorting to a third party installer as the only reasonable solution, at this stage of the game, at least. There in fact being free Windows installers available, with modest learning curves. To some extent, the temptation of bdist_wininst is the biggest problem of bdist_wininst - is a possible unhappy conclusion. Art Jeremy Hylton jeremy at zope.com Mon Jun 30 20:12:12 EDT 2003 I'd like to give the user control over where the files get installed. It looks like distutils installs into site-packages by default, and there's no way to override it. The UI shows the destination directory in a box that looks like it should be editable, but it isn't. If you run setup.py install, you can pass a --home that affects where files are installed. I'm looking for something similar on Windows. Jeremy

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re: computer courses to math majors
by Arthur 07 Aug '03

07 Aug '03

ali writes - >comp 103 -- computer programming II >(what do you think about this??? -- i'm thinking of including vpython >and/or pygeo here...) >can you comment on these (esp. comp 102 and 103)?? I think the pygeo idea is a decent one ;) Truly, if there is anything I can do to help make that a reality, please let me know. The documentation for pygeo is a problem. Mostly because I don't really understand who I should be writing it for, and my efforts keeping getting sidetracked on that account. In the context of a real world situation - if you help me understand what assumptions I can make about your students background - it might get me off the dime, a bit. comp 103: so I don't need to worry about presenting basic Python concpets as part of my docs. That kind of thing. Not a curriculum, certainly. But documentation that might at least "speak to" your students , a bit. Math students studying programming is my ideal audience, I would think. I would hope they would interested in taking apart the code a bit, and even maybe putting it back together - better. Art

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computer courses to math majors...
by rmangaliag＠slu.edu.ph 07 Aug '03

07 Aug '03

i've been tasked by my department head (computer application department) to identify computer subjects that can be given to math majors (bachelor's degree) in our small university... we are currently in a transition phase (because of the change in the curriculum... these are my thoughts... comp 101 -- basic computer concepts/information technology (this is an intro to computers with wordprocessing and basic spreadsheet) comp 102 -- computer programming I (finally, i was able to convince my department head to "embrace" python) comp 103 -- computer programming II (what do you think about this??? -- i'm thinking of including vpython and/or pygeo here...) can you comment on these (esp. comp 102 and 103)?? and can you please give me some resources/links where i can pattern the syllabus of the said subjects??? thanks... ali ps... we can ask for an inclusion of another math/computer subject (possibly comp 104)... what other math/python topics can i include??? ------------------------------------------------- Email Service Provided by SLU-Net Saint Louis University ( http://www.slu.edu.ph ) -------------------------------------------------

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Re: PyOpenGL etc. in Python 2.3 (Windows)
by Arthur 07 Aug '03

07 Aug '03

> >Maybe others like small footprint too and don't include optional >>packages into the core distro ;) > > Markus >Yeah, but.... Or perhaps something small can be taken from win32all, or written as a platform specific extension to disutils. Taking up the cause of Windows users, and those trying to reach Windows users, is not a very sexy position to be in in an Open Source community. And I couldn't have much to say until I understood disutils well enough. Now, I think I can say without the fear that I am missing something fundamental (who knows), that disutils - having come along way quickly - still does not address some fundamental issues. And I am not sure how it can ever address both Windows and non-Windows standards and expectations without some added functionality that specifically addresses some of the quirks of the Windows platform and its user base. And it happens that with win32all installed, I think all fundamentals can be met. What more minimal code might be sufficient .... not my job, though I would try to help if I could. Art

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