Mailman 3 January 2004 - Edu-sig

re: Python "3" and National Project to establish the Knowledge Sciences as an Academic Discipline
by Arthur 05 Jan '04

05 Jan '04

>Art and the edu-sig Thanks for the reply. I have gotten use to the interspersed practice, and will follow it. But, for one, have no strong feelings about it one way or other. I would vote that you communicate in the way you are most comfortable. Python community fact 1: I, Art, do not speak for it in any possible sense. My standing is marginal, in fact. I speak for myself. And often, not well. <snip> >So, our primary educational objective is to teach about the limitations of >computer science, when one is attempting to use the computer as a means to >assist in community based knowledge management. The position is that our >society will be better off when computer technology is easier to understand >and more generally accessible (and this is in the spirit of Python - as >well as other languages.) >The Orb technology is one possible inclusion in the Knowledge Technology >Toolkit. I am a bit the resident Luddite. Sharing the general goal of technological literacy, and being unconvinced that technology itself can be a major factor in achieving it. Python points in the direction of what may be achievable. But there is no credible evidence I have seen to indicate that teaching and learning something like Python is not an essentially low tech endeavor, inherently. But I don't know whether that sentiment is oppositional to your own, and in any case, it is certainly does not represent any kind of prevailing sentiment at edu-sig. In fact you can safely ignore the last paragraph. >We are, however, looking for assistance in developing multiple user domain >(MUD) environments that support both peer-to-peer communication and the >machine representation of indicators of subject matter (such as we find >from the Orbs (Ontology Referential Base) models of linguistic variation.) >It is our expectation that a discussion can develop in which if there is a >question then we will have an opportunity to answer the question, in a >scholarly fashion, and a discussion in which our group, BCNGroup, of >primary scientists can listen to the comments of this edu-sig group. >Python does not have to be in the middle of the proposal for a National >Project, this is why we ask for this discussion - to make a determination. Edu-sig is a group of diverse - sometimes wildy diverse opinion. Obviously it is Mr. Guido van Rossum and other members of the Python Software Foundation http://www.python.org/psf/ with whom you need to be speaking. Certainly there is no reason I see for your group not to explore the possibilities of the use of Python in achieving your goals. It has a liberal license for use it any project of this kind. At the same time I see every reason not to do so in a manner that purports to be speaking on behalf of anyone in or out of the Python community who hasn't explicitly signed on. I am gathering Guido has not at this point explicitly signed on. Which is why I am baffled at the Python3 component of the discussion. >And no, I still do not know who Tim Peters is... Nobody very important really <wink> Art

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Morphix
by Arthur 05 Jan '04

05 Jan '04

Great minds think alike ;) The BNCGroup's Knowledge Technology Toolkit would be a Knoppix based bootable CD. The content of which....? The concept of such a resource in this media, providing easy access to the curious of Python related educational resources has been suggested by AS here before. It would clearly, IMO, be a wonderful resource to have available. Morphix is a Knoppix based distribution that is specifically designed for easy reconfiguration to allow customized distribution. For example, a distribution highlighting Python related educational resources. http://morphix.sourceforge.net/modules/news/ While it would quite swell to have a $2 mil budget to put something like this together, a start might be reasonably made with a $0 budget. I have a lot on my plate, and don't think this is something I will get very far with - again, trying to be realistic - working on my own. One alternative I can think of is to simply open a sourceforge project, make a python-list announcement, and see if any community interest is generated. Any thoughts, interest, words of encouragement? Art

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Guardian Unlimited The Guardian Stay still, will you
by Jason Cunliffe 05 Jan '04

05 Jan '04

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1116074,00.html

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Thoughts from a lurker
by Trent A. Oliphant 05 Jan '04

05 Jan '04

I just want to add how much I appreciate all of the effort that a few go to in these discussions that I gain so much from. I am only a part-time hack programmer (a little of VBA in Access) and a little Python when I get a chance (Both self-taught). And my input in education is as a home-schooling father (unschooling being my choice of methodology). But I am greatly interested in both of these areas and thus have been subscribed to this list for quite a long period of time. The fact that these discussions are taking place, help me to understand things better myself, not just of Python, but of the learning process and how computers and technology fits in to that. The recent discussion on 0 vs 1 based indexing has been very helpful to me in that regard. (Although, I still have to think each time I want to take a slice from the end of a list. For some reason I haven't quite "understood" exactly what the notation means. I can get it each time - but I don't "know" it enough for it to come naturally, I'll send a separate post to explain my confusion each time.). I have often been frustrated over the general sense that any computer "training" is just how to do tasks, with no explanation of why. This is especially true in the business world, which is why I have avoided taking any classes to learn about computers. I would hope that a Computer Science program would be different, but having never taken a course I wouldn't know. (I have been a software trainer myself and when I had the opportunity, I tried to develop cirriculum that included the why of doing things.) One thing that I have noticed about most computer cirriculum - especially books, is that I am able to understand them very well (and quickly) up to a certain point. Then it seems as if there is a huge leap - as if there is a chapter or two missing (or more). Unfortunately, I don't have any specific examples at this point - I will try to find them. I end up feeling like Alice upon hearing "The Jabberwocky" - it seems as if it should make sense, but it just doesn't. >From an edu-sig standpoint, is this experience typical? If so, why? And can anything be done about it? Is it a matter of "computer literacy readiness"? That is the one reason I joined this SIG - to find out how to make learning these things more accessible to me, and hopefully to others as well. Trent Oliphant

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re: conversation is unnecessarily burdened
by Arthur 04 Jan '04

04 Jan '04

Paul writes - >There are many things that one can become a master of , and I can >acknowledge that you have a good mind and a scholarly sense - but that you >do not understand something might rather lead to an interest in what you do >not know rather than a communication of distrust. ? I can only respond that a communication of distrust is just that - an effort to communicate. And should be seen as preferable to and more respectful than uncommunicated mistrust. And while there is very rarely general consensus around edu-sig, there seems to be some general consensus, that the BNCGroup might well take some responsibility for an inability of others to grasp its agenda. Part of the distrust, in my case, derives from the fact that there is zero (or null) effort to state objectives and ideas in ways that could reasonable be expected to be grasped by an interested, but uninitiated, observer. So yes, I quite believe that you have "seen this before". And as much bandwidth as I might consume, there is plenty of unconsumed bandwidth as well (as I think Kirby, in effect, once observed). I don't perceive myself as attempting to do more than say what I have to say. And can't find a reason to believe doing so is effectively limiting anyone else from having their say. In terms of talking to someone who can speak for the Python community - impossible, thank goodness. In terms of speaking for folks who can speak for the Python Software Foundation, I pointed clearly in the appropriate direction. Best I can do. Art

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resigning
by Paul Prueitt 04 Jan '04

04 Jan '04

I will retire from this conversation. My time is needed on some other thoughts and I can see that the nature of the community here is not going to allow the type of discussion that I had hoped for. I do not criticize anyone, I just do not have time for this. best wishes to all for the New Year. anyone wishing to have a different discussion with my self and those whom I am speaking for, please join the bcngroup e-forum www.bcngroup.org if you wish to have the membership fee waived please just send a request to nathan(a)ontologystream.com again my respects to the community here.

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Re: HGGL, room and dining
by Rachel 04 Jan '04

04 Jan '04

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Re: [Edu-sig] Knowledge Technology Toolkit
by Laura Creighton 04 Jan '04

04 Jan '04

In a message of Sun, 04 Jan 2004 13:40:03 EST, "portal" writes: >I speak in my langauge, and do the best that I can. The jargon that I use I >explain so why is there a problem? We aren't understanding very well, so something is not working. I think it is too much language-which-you-use-to-mean-concept-A while the rest of us use the same language to mean something not-A. This is what happens with jargon -- people working in a field end up using a subset of the language in an extremely specialised fashion. It is precise within members of the field. But the people within the field have a tendancy to forget that they ever used the words to mean something different. Then when they go and try to communicate their ideas to people who are outside of the field, they get incomprehension, of the particular frustrating sort where not only do you not understand, but you don't even know what it is that you do not understand -- all the phrases make sense up until a point, but the whole lot does not come together. It becomes a game of 'guess which words he is using in a non-standard way'. If you have ever played with Markov Chains, then you know that this can be a lot of fun as a game -- to try to find meanings for generated things -- but if your real life conversations sound like Markov chains to the uninitiated, then you are deep within the realm of jargon, and non-standard word usage. This is what I think is happening here. We'd like the 'explanation for 10 year olds'. What are you trying to do, and why? Laura Creighton

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re: learn-ed disability is counter evidence
by Arthur 04 Jan '04

04 Jan '04

Paul writes - >The purpose of Python is not to continue a programmer caste system but to >open access to knowledge of how a computer works to everyone. (Yes?) I guess only Guido can speak to the purpose of Python. But even his intentions do not control the situation in any real way. And it is unfortunate polemics to make this kind of argument. What I perceive as realistic to expect from Python is a statement of perception of reality, not an ideological wish list. And in my cosmos represents one of approximately 4 billion zillion (my last count) cases where reality disappoints. Reality, not Python. I do believe - reality based, in my view of it - that Python is unique enough to make a real contribution in the educational arena, targeted properly. And believe - I know I am in effect repeating myself - that by overstating the case radically, we risk largely missing the opportunity for maximizing the reality based opportunities. Please - everybody - do prove me wrong. But do *prove* me wrong. Art

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Re: [Edu-sig] Knowledge Technology Toolkit
by Laura Creighton 04 Jan '04

04 Jan '04

In a message of Sun, 04 Jan 2004 10:36:55 EST, "portal" writes: <snip> >We are looking for a good solution that allows kids to control computers so >that we, the educators and the students, can talk about what is not talked >about - and these are cultural and social issues related to informationial >Base (Orb) technology within a MUD (multiple user domain) and target chat >and e-forums with externally generated subject matter taxonomy so that kids >and educators can see what is the thematic structure of social discourse. > >http://www.bcngroup.org/area2/KnowledgeEcologies.htm You will probably get further if you use less jargon, especially among people who already think that MUDs are Multi-User dungeons and ORBs are Object Request Brokers. If I understand you, I think that you are mistaken in believing that more technology will get you anywhere in your struggle to inform people of the thematic structure of social discourse. For that you need courses in media manipulation, and the like. I suppose you already know about http://www.media-awareness.ca/ Canadians have been studying this and teaching it in their high schools for years .... Laura Creighton

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