Mailman 3 March 2005 - Edu-sig

RE: [Edu-sig] RE: Concentric hierarchy / hypertoon (was pygame etc.)
by Arthur March 20, 2005

March 20, 2005

> -----Original Message----- > From: Kirby Urner [mailto:urnerk@qwest.net] >Engineering and a focus on artifacts > trumps > political efforts to block basic innovations in math teaching. There's > really no stopping us, politically speaking (because we really don't care > about politics that much (like, we're popular already)). The tragedy I see is that it is in fact the technologists - specifically those immersed in IT - who are emerging as the most formidable obstacle to progress, as I would define it. I follow the debian edu mailinglist, and what I seem to see is a complete lack of critical analysis as to the use of technology. The starting assumption is the more the merrier, and the prevailing motivation seems to be beating Microsoft at the thoughtless use of technology in the school systems. There are all kinds of ways of beating Microsoft, I guess. Art

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RE: [Edu-sig] RE: Concentric hierarchy / hypertoon (was pygame etc.)
by Arthur March 20, 2005

March 20, 2005

> From: Kirby Urner [mailto:urnerk@qwest.net] > > > No major mind damage is going to be done by a different presentation. > > > > But I would like to disassociate the notion of geometry and the > regularity > > of forms as completely and as early as possible. And this is where I > seem > > to be most non-Fullerian. > > > > Art > > > > Not claiming to follow, but yes, we appear to diverge here. I suspect this exchange is more interesting to you and I than to others on the list and that it would be most appropriate to table it to a face-to-face at PyCon breaks - except that my schedule is conspiring against it, it now looking that I won't be able to make it there. The best I can hope for at the moment is attending Friday's sessions. > > The thing is, we don't disassociate "playing with blocks" from > architecture, > and by extension from geometry, at all, in current childhood education. > We > most intimately link a rectilinear format, with various cylinders, cones > and > balls, into the young (very young) imagination. Cubes are both prevalent > and regular, without any doing from me. > > So Fuller's innovation is *not* with respect to linking shapes and > geometry > early (regular shapes included, in the form of blocks, toys using them), > but > in the particular assortment of shapes and their canonical relationships. > It's much more 60 degree than we're used to (what with all the equiangular > triangles everywhere), from a classical western perspective, which is more > 90 degree, more into post and lintel perpendicularity. Well certainly Klein presentation makes the (not necessarily regular) tetrahedron the fundamental space form - so that Klein and Fuller are thinking in the same manner in some fundamental respects. And I happen to have a great fondness for 60 degrees - gained via the folding of flexagons, introduced to me in 4th grade by a brilliant teacher. I still can't resist making one when I see a roll of adding machine tape. I think they would be a great addition to your repertoire. I think the real competition to the tetrahedron in space is the sphere, and the real revelation is the perspective that makes the tetra more useful than it as the fundamental space form. But I guess I shouldn't forget that Klein's matrix algebra for lengths, areas, and volumes is working via a regular rectilinear coordinate system. I know you and others have thought about a coordination of space via a regular tetrahedron. *That* I find fascinating, and would probably be my best way in to more Fullerist geometric thinking. Art

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RE: [Edu-sig] RE: Concentric hierarchy / hypertoon (was pygame etc.)
by Arthur March 19, 2005

March 19, 2005

> -----Original Message----- > From: Kirby Urner [mailto:urnerk@qwest.net] > Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 11:07 AM > To: 'Arthur'; edu-sig(a)python.org > Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] RE: Concentric hierarchy / hypertoon (was pygame > etc.) > Basically, once you've got a tetrahedron inscribed in a parallelepiped as > face diagonals, various affine transformations of said sculpture preserves > the 1:3 volume relationship, i.e. this is not just about the regular tet > and > cube. We can eventually get them to Klein's fusionist approach - fusing the algebraic and geometric, as well as the flat and spatial. Part One, Page 1 of the Klein "Elementary Geometry" book I have been referencing introduces us to the progression of formations of 2,3 + 4 points, which brings us from the line to the triangle to the tetrahedron. The length, area, and volume of the fundamental formations are a simple function of the determinate of the matrix of the rectangular point coordinates on the line, on the plane, and in space - respectively. He then points out that even further generalization can be achieved by giving significance to the sign of the determinate - so that given a consistent ordering of points, one can readily ascertain the volume of arbitrary polygons/ polyhedra by composing them into component triangles/tetrahedron from a given reference point either within or outside the form, and then by adding the volumes (which may be negative) of the fundamental forms. Klein's approach to geometry is to find approaches that move between dimensions and forms in such a way that best avoids the need to except any special case. Which is why projective geometry becomes the (nearly) fundamental geometry, and other geometries - affine, Euclidian - are specializations. In this view, a regular tetrahedron is a bit of a freak - perfectly placed and formed. And at least in some important senses is of much less interest than what can be said - and there is indeed a lot than can be said - of the geometry of 4 balls tossed arbitrarily into space. I choose to rarely think in terms regular forms. Besides seeming inherently less interesting to me, I truly get confused as to what traits I am observing (or calculating) which derive themselves from the regularity and which might be more general. Regularity is therefore dangerous, and potentially confusing - rather than comforting. No major mind damage is going to be done by a different presentation. But I would like to disassociate the notion of geometry and the regularity of forms as completely and as early as possible. And this is where I seem to be most non-Fullerian. Art

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RE: Concentric hierarchy / hypertoon (was pygame etc.)
by Arthur March 19, 2005

March 19, 2005

> -----Original Message----- > From: Kirby Urner [mailto:urnerk@qwest.net] > > I pick up my tetrahedron (black electrical tape on the edges, good > contrast), and say "Measuring cup!" (I probably say more). Then I scoop > up > a boat load of beans. Now it's full. In my other hand, Cube. How many > tetrahedron cups to fill my Cube? Guesses, kids calling out. Well, let's > see... one.... two.... three. Done. It's brimming with beans, no room > for > more. Is the ratio exact? You betcha. Might they also be interested that in Egypt, long-ago, in the shadow of the Pyramids, folks not only understood this to be true, but were not content with this knowledge. A way of thinking was developed that allowed them to become satisfied that the truth of this observation "makes sense" - that we should in fact *expect* it to be true. http://babbage.clarku.edu/~djoyce/java/elements/bookXIII/propXIII15.html What seems surprising - given a logical progression of thought - can be found to be not surprising, really. What is the lesson to be learned from that? To me, it *is* the lesson. Art

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RE: [Edu-sig] RE: Pygame, gameMaker etc.
by Arthur March 17, 2005

March 17, 2005

> -----Original Message----- > From: Kirby Urner [mailto:urnerk@qwest.net] <snip> > > It takes some getting used to, but it's readable prose. Of course there are infinite valid ways of describing a tree. Its readable prose, but not particularly pretty prose. It ain't science, it ain't poetry. It is a perspective, a way of looking at a tree. And I think I appreciate that in its time a perspective - wholistic/holistic - that was lost or well on its way to being so. And therefore of importance. But I would contend that Fuller was much more successful in getting his message out than you seem to feel. So much so that someone who was not around when he was pressing his points, and able to understand the milieu in which he was functioning, might not see why we might be honoring him. Any good consultant's goal to make himself/herself obsolete. As a philosopher, I think he was in the tradition of pragmatism - and would come out on the side of Popper in the debate between Popper and Wittgenstein as to whether philosophy actually mattered. His idea had and have practical implications. And I believe those ideas have been quite influential. So it is anything but an insult to Fuller to consider him to have obsoleted himself, at least a bit. Reconciling Wittgenstein and Fuller, though, would certainly take an Urner. > Fuller's deeper commitment was to invention *in language* i.e. to come up > with an integrative way of thinking about everything using geometry as the > principal source of metaphors. Per the quote at my synergetics page: <snip> > Indeed, Fuller dedicated his magnum opus to Coxeter, probably the premier > geometer of the > 20th century, or certainly one of the top ones. He was paying homage to a > leading light in a related/overlapping discipline. You and I seem to take slightly different things away from the dedication to Coxeter. Perhaps Fuller is saying something not too different from Plato, in pointing to Coxeter. Which gets us back to our argument of some 5 year's standing now. Me thinking that you want to push folks ahead to the ideas of the Master, while allowing them to skip most of the prerequisites. Can't happen. I assume that I can't really fully appreciate Fullers ideas until I know a decent amount of what he knew, as background. Certainly a task in itself. And he is giving us a very good clue as to what he himself considers as prerequisite to his ideas, in his dedication to Coxeter. And I am hard at work. Though it is taking me well beyond Geometry 101. Art

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RE: [Edu-sig] RE: Pygame, gameMaker etc.
by Arthur March 15, 2005

March 15, 2005

> -----Original Message----- > From: Kirby Urner [mailto:urnerk@qwest.net] > He won a tournament at college and came home proudly with the medal he > > earned. > > > > His stern and studious father reacted - in Yiddish. > > > > "" > > This, a medal? > > > > Mathematics is a medal! > > "" > > > > Yiddish equally tough as boxing, if not more so. > > > Guess I'm stuck in the same groove as grandpa, a bit. > > > > Art > > > > Or were you the guy who got hit? > Certainly not by Dad, who was (and is) the gentlest of men. But I hit and got hit along the way. Being in the smart kids track, we tended to attract the attention of bullies. Having been born with boxing gloves in my crib, I was not ill-equipped to defend myself and my friends. Though I certainly took a few shots along the way. But of course this was in the days before one had to concern oneself with whether one's fifteen year-old adversary might be carrying a weapon. As you well know, my tendency toward pugilism has not disappeared - just evolved. For example -- I have been until now resisting sparring with you as to Fullerian geometry. There seems to be an obsession with regularity - in the Euclidian sense. Rigid motions of regular shapes - and in that sense it always seems to me to represent a pre-modern (non-Kleinian) conception of geometry. So whereas our interests, obsessions seem to have some commonality - it is always interesting to - as well - trade some shots, over what appear to be our differences. Though perhaps here is not the place. Art

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Hypertoons! (upgrade available)
by Kirby Urner March 14, 2005

March 14, 2005

I upgraded my hypertoons module at http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/python/hypertoons/ I'm down to just two modules, plus VPython of course. This still has those couple 2.4 idioms. Went from 16 scenarios to 29! I've GOT to find those stereo glasses. Kirby """ Creates a network of VPython animations connected through key frames, with a random selection at each frame. Like a network of subway tunnels, and a choice of where to go next at each station (tunnel = scenario, nodelist = options of where to go next i.e. any scenario starting with current key frame. The theme of this hypertoon is Buckminster Fuller's concentric hierarchy of polyhedra, complete with jitterbug transformation and allusions to the CCP. =============================================================== History Last modified: March 14 2005 29 scenarios, 8 key frames Fixed bugs in jitterbug by refreshing rbf canonical points Sped it up, other aesthetic improvements Added more five-fold shapes place balls growing/shrinking Removed dependencies on colors.py coords.py First posted: March 11 2005 16 scenarios, 6 key frames Original proof of concept Background posted to Python/edu-sig http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2005-March/004499.html John Zelle gets it in stereo! http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2005-March/004503.html Kirby Urner 4D Solutions """

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Re: RE: [Edu-sig] RE: Pygame, gameMaker etc.
by ajsiegel＠optonline.net March 14, 2005

March 14, 2005

----- Original Message ----- From: Kirby Urner <urnerk(a)qwest.net> Date: Monday, March 14, 2005 11:21 am Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] RE: Pygame, gameMaker etc. > > > As you well know, my tendency toward pugilism has not > disappeared - just > > evolved. > > > > For example -- > > > > I have been until now resisting sparring with you as to Fullerian > > geometry. There seems to be an obsession with regularity - in > the > > Euclidian sense. Rigid motions of regular shapes - and in that > sense it > > always seems to me to represent a pre-modern (non-Kleinian) > conception > > of geometry. > > Sparring OK by me. Sidetrip: Maybe a book about men of science and athletics. Niels Bohr, for example, was on the Danish National soccer team. His brother, a physicist colleague, while overshadowed by Niels in the laboratory - apparently outshown him on the field, being considered the premier soccer player in Denmark at the time. All according to my sources - which I hope I can reconstruct if challenged. Einstein I suspect, on the other hand, is not someone yuo would want batting clean-up. Art > > There's a filter here: what's easy enough for Kirby to program? That > narrows things drastically. I focus on the regular stuff because > that'swhat's easiest for me to code. > > Fuller's goal, on the other hand, was to come up with a coherent > geometriclanguage (a prose form) that'd describe whatever: trees, > stars, dust > mites... > > The concentric hierarchy stuff I dwell on in my hypertoons is > regular/rigid(except the jitterbug plays on joint flexibility) and > embeds in a frozen > lattice of CCP spheres. Crystallography mostly. Plus a basic > grounding in > coordinate systems and spatial relationships. Geometry 101. > > http://www.mathforum.com/kb/plaintext.jspa?messageID=3696497 > > Kirby > > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig(a)python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig >

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RE: Pygame, gameMaker etc.
by Arthur March 13, 2005

March 13, 2005

> -----Original Message----- > From: Kirby Urner [mailto:urnerk@qwest.net] > Arthur: > > To me the "game" is in getting the computer to respond to one's > > instructions, and that directing the end product to be in particular a > > "game" in any normal sense of the word is unnecessarily limiting, and - > > IMO - not as generally appealing to beginners as seems to be assumed. > > > > Perhaps the solution is to get "game" to mean anything/everything, when we > need it to. There are head games and mind games and semantic games. And there are Purim games: http://www.bus.ualberta.ca/yreshef/purim/clown.html My father's game was boxing. Tough game. He won a tournament at college and came home proudly with the medal he earned. His stern and studious father reacted - in Yiddish. "" This, a medal? Mathematics is a medal! "" Guess I'm stuck in the same groove as grandpa, a bit. Art

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Re: Edu-sig Digest, Vol 19, Issue 22
by Darren Payne March 13, 2005

March 13, 2005

Joe, I am a high school teacher in Australia and I have kept right away from C / C++. I feel it is simply too hard @ high school level. I think we have "spoken" before? I have taught Pascal, VB, Python and Java - as core languages over the years. I have also taught Prolog, Haskell and Scheme LISP - to demonstrate alternative thinking patterns in programming. All programming at high school level, in my experince, suffers because the GUI in VB is so damn good! I tend to agree that it doesn't encourage the best coding skills in students ... however it does allow them to focus on getting results - relatively quickly - and with the graphical components which are important to them - (hold attention, motivate etc). Python IS a GREAT language to start out with ... but simply put, the lack of GUI means only the most committed students get anything out of it without alot of coercing from me. I read Kirby's work with interest - however my experience is teenagers just aren't interested in math. Rather it is a chore that must be endured, a minimum standard society requires us to attain. Java ... well is some regards good, but honestly in my opinion - vastly over rated. It has so much "gumph" in it that it takes students 9 - 10 weeks before they begin to feel comfortable with it and mostly in this time you lose the majority of them. Once again a VB like GUI is required. The whole code in this, compile here, run and then work out what's wrong puts lots of students off - even when you give them a decent IDE (I like JCreator, JGRASP or BlueJ if you want to focus on OO programming) I see a moderate number of students (always boys) each year who will definitely become programmers / study computer science. I encourage these kids to look at Python and Haskell - and they tend to be the sort of person who can look beyond the GUI and want to learn how to really program. For the remainder of students who have chosen IT more for general interest I use VB (last year, 2004, we did Python, console based programs are really boring!). This year I have changed and moved to Gamemaker. I have read huge amounts of material advocating programming games as a way to encourage kids to think - (analyse, synthesise, evaluate, plan, design, manage, communicate) ... AND I have never seen such enthusiasm for programming, smiles from ear to ear - even the girls love it! BTW Gamemaker written in Delphi - I think - and has its roots in Pascal. Hope this helps regards Darren --- edu-sig-request(a)python.org wrote: > Send Edu-sig mailing list submissions to > edu-sig(a)python.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, > visit > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > or, via email, send a message with subject or body > 'help' to > edu-sig-request(a)python.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > edu-sig-owner(a)python.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it > is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Edu-sig digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. High School Programming for Newbies (Joseph > Ehlers) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:39:56 -0600 > From: "Joseph Ehlers" <ehlersjp(a)msn.com> > Subject: [Edu-sig] High School Programming for > Newbies > To: <edu-sig(a)python.org> > Message-ID: > <BAY4-DAV26194BFD97580C48EFDAF8DA650(a)phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Dear Python Community, > > > > I joined the Python Edu-Sig about a year ago and > posed the question of what would be good for an > Introductory High School Programming course. Your > input guided my efforts and now my high school is > finally going to offer programming courses starting > next year; we currently do not offer any > programming. We have permission for two classes and > administration support for a third class a few years > down the road. At the moment the course offerings > are looking like this: > > > > 1.. The first semester class will probably be > Visual Basic. Two reasons for this: 1). The GUI > should hold students' attention quickly in this > elective class and, 2). Every other high school in > my metro area is offering Visual Basic. > 2.. The second semester class is looking like it > will be Python. Books are hard to find but I'm > looking at, "Python Programming for the Absolute > Beginner" by Michael Dawson, "Python Programming An > Introduction to Computer Science" by John Zelle, and > "How to Think Like a Computer Scientist Learning > with Python" by Allen Downey, Jeffrey Elkner and > Chris Meyers. Maybe I'll settle on one or a > combination of the three. > 3.. The next full year class will be AP Computer > Science Java (This class won't happen for a few > years however. I have to become more knowledgeable > before I tackle three big fish at once). > > > I have done a lot of research on this but I must > confess that since I am not a programmer that most > of the research results are over my head. My high > school is not turning out programmers; we are just > trying to expose students to computer science and > programming and to help them think logically through > problems. We are trying to prepare them for college > computer science. From my research, Python's > strengths seem to be: easy to learn, simple syntax, > fun, allows students to spend time thinking about > the problem versus fixing syntax, transitions nicely > into Java, and develops logical thinking. All that > sounds great, just what we are tying to accomplish > and I can't wait for the course. > > > > (I'm finally getting to my question.) Now some > people are telling me that we need to offer C++. > Help! I don't think I can fit more into the > curriculum and do justice to any one language. One > of our goals is to offer AP Computer Science Java in > the future and we want the students adequately > prepared for that language. What is the opinion of > the Python Edu-Sig community? Should we offer C++? > And if so, where would it fit into the curriculum? > > > > Thank you. This community was very helpful in the > past in steering me in the right direction. > (Another strength of Python). You are helping shape > new courses at the high school level. Your help is > greatly appreciated. > > > > Joe Ehlers >

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