Mailman 3 - Edu-sig - python.org

Hello from Kirby in Oregon
by Kirby Urner 02 Feb '00

02 Feb '00

I don't know how few of us there are here at this point -- I'd like to share this again later perhaps... http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/oop7.html is my sort of "Python headquarters" page, where I link to most of what I've done around Python -- that page being itself the last chapter in a seven chapter "book" I started writing quite some time ago (before I'd run across Python). More recently (like yesterday), I sort of stumbled into the Scheme folks at Rice University. There was some initial smoldering at first, but I feel we reached a good place in the aftermath (like, I've had some useful follow-up correspondence with Shriram Krishnamurthi, and have downloaded DrScheme in preparation for study). You'll find some links documenting that experience as well. I do not consider myself a Python guru or anything. What excited me about it was how quickly I could learn it, and how easily it wrapped itself around my application. True, I'd already done this polyhedron job in Xbase and Java -- most things are easier on the 3rd try -- but I felt the language really worked with the grain of my thinking, made clear my approach, which was to use polyhedra as paradigm "objects" in both the geometric sense, but in the OOP sense as well. For more on my vision of how OOP might become more integral within K-12 (this vision is not really language-specific, though of course Python is one way to go), see: http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/trends2000.html Reserving the right to post this again down the road, if it turns out I'm just talking to myself in a big empty room. :-D Kirby 4D Solutions Portland, Oregon

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Mail to Gerrit Holl is bouncing
by Guido van Rossum 30 Jan '00

30 Jan '00

I hope that Gerrit Holl reads this in the archives; I have no other way of reaching him. I wonder why I am "not liked source for email". If this is a dorkslayers thing: sorry, we don't have the time to deal with that. If you want to stay in touch with Python you'll have to switch to a less paranoid provider. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) ------- Forwarded Message Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 18:28:33 +0100 From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON(a)geo.uu.nl> To: <guido(a)CNRI.Reston.VA.US> Subject: Warning: could not send message for past 4 hours ********************************************** ** THIS IS A WARNING MESSAGE ONLY ** ** YOU DO NOT NEED TO RESEND YOUR MESSAGE ** ********************************************** The original message was received at Sun, 30 Jan 2000 14:25:14 +0100 (MET) from ns.CNRI.Reston.VA.US [132.151.1.1] ----- The following addresses had transient non-fatal errors ----- <gerrit(a)nl.linux.org> ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... while talking to humbolt.nl.linux.org.: >>> MAIL From:<guido(a)CNRI.Reston.VA.US> SIZE=503 <<< 453 4.7.1 Policy analysis reported: You are not liked source for email <gerrit(a)nl.linux.org>... Deferred: 453 4.7.1 Policy analysis reported: You are not liked source for email Warning: message still undelivered after 4 hours Will keep trying until message is 5 days old ----- Original message follows ----- Received: from cnri.reston.va.us (ns.CNRI.Reston.VA.US [132.151.1.1]) by terra.geo.uu.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3/TvZ) with ESMTP id OAA18435 for <gerrit(a)nl.linux.org>; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 14:25:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from kaluha.cnri.reston.va.us (kaluha.cnri.reston.va.us [132.151.7.31 ]) by cnri.reston.va.us (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA02462; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 08:21:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from eric.cnri.reston.va.us (eric.cnri.reston.va.us [10.27.10.23]) by kaluha.cnri.reston.va.us (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA13937; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 08:22:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eric.cnri.reston.va.us (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA12237; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 08:22:26 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200001301322.IAA12237(a)eric.cnri.reston.va.us> To: gerrit(a)nl.linux.org cc: edu-sig(a)python.org Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Dead sig? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 29 Jan 2000 20:37:17 +0100." <20000129203717.A5287(a)stopcontact.palga.uucp> References: <20000129203717.A5287(a)stopcontact.palga.uucp> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 08:22:26 -0500 From: Guido van Rossum <guido(a)CNRI.Reston.VA.US> Gerrit, You have to fix your email. Everything I have sent you recently got bounced, complaining that the sender is not an acceptable host or something. (I don't have the exact error; I tend to throw away bounces since I get so many that I don't have the time to do anything about them.) And yes, please be patient, the edu sig will be announced soon. - --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) ------- End of Forwarded Message

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Dead sig?
by Gerrit Holl 30 Jan '00

30 Jan '00

Hello, Why isn't this sig listed in the sigs list? I'd love to teach people programming in Python. The list isn't retired either; were you just going to announce it? Or did I miss something? regards, Gerrit. P.S. I know you (Guido) are the only one on this list, but I'm not talking Dutch because of the archive. P.P.S. First post! -- Please correct any bad English you encounter in my email message! -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- http://www.geekcode.com Version: 3.12 GCS dpu s-:-- a14 C++++>$ UL++ P--- L+++ E--- W++ N o? K? w--- !O !M !V PS+ PE? Y? PGP-- t- 5? X? R- tv- b+(++) DI D+ G++ !e !r !y -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----

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Re: [Edu-sig] Programming for non-programmer IT professionals (in healthcare)
by Alan Gauld 19 Nov '00

19 Nov '00

>this discussion has focused on the application of Python to teaching >programming at the primary and second school levels, with a bit of >introductory programming at the college level thrown in. Yes, I guess this reflects the aims of the CP4E project which originally drove the list(at least when I first joined it). >There is another application for Python in education >.... train individuals for careers in information technology >not primarily oriented to programming. Yes, we have a lot of that in the UK. In fact it was specifically for that group that I created my beginners web tutorial. [ My book takes a slightly wider view and aims for generally computer literate individuals rather than IT literate.] >.... For these latter individuals, it is important that they >understand certain concepts related to coding Just so, > such as control flow, the general meaning of > object-oriented and modular design, > issues related to data parsing, I cover these in my tutor, > expression of data and program structure with UML, but don't cover this. Interestingly tho' I am currently writing some articles for InfomIT on the UML. > communication between systems, > programming for application servers, etc. Wow, thats getting into pretty advanced stuff. I'm not sure it would be fair to expect that from a sys admin or resource manager type. (Otherwise they might expect us to start understanding all the resource management stuff :-) > They also need to be able to discuss program design > issues intelligently with programmers. Agreed, although I'd argue that basoic UML knowledge would suffice. Certainly at the level of, say, Fowler's UML Distilled. > few of the higher level topics I mentioned above > are addressed at that level of C training, Certainly the design and networking stuff are unlikely to be dealt with. > and thirdly because this brief exposure to C does not leave > them with useful tools for their personal work. And thats the real reason I did my tutor in Python. Its great for "personal use" - just making tools that ease the burden of a busy sys admin. > In response to this, I'm beginning to develop > a programming course for medical informatics based on > Python which will be offered to appropriate students > Elkner's Python version of "How to think..." in some detail). Its very good and I saw it once on the Python Intros page. Then it dissapeared, not sure why. >members are interested in this type of teaching, Not at the college course level but certainly its pretty much where my tutor and to a lesser extent my book are aimed. Alan G. http://www.crosswinds.net/~agauld/

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Re: [Edu-sig] Update: Python & the "Math Wars"
by Alan Gauld 12 Apr '00

12 Apr '00

>days, but how could schools reasonably require that >my student have a real computer -- even if we could >afford one, many other families would be hard pressed." This is presuming each student needs a computer. Which to some extent reflects the PC culture of the last 2 decades. My school had a computer in 1974 - or more accurately a modem connection to the local university computer down which we could send punch tape messages. Programming consisted of punching the tapes then waiting for the print out to arrive in the post 2 days later... We don't need to go that far back but certainly shared access to a multi user computer is a possibility - it's what X was invented for! One expensive box, lots of cheap ones. >* use some of the money we'd save from not spending > so much on text books to subsidize the purchase of > computers -- provide vouchers towards a computer > purchase In the UK many supermarkets are doing schemes whereby shoppers can collect vouchers to buy comuters for schools. This seems to be a popular scheme with parents. Note that the PCs are bought for the schools not for the pupils... >* use computers in school but don't assign homework > that presumes access in the home I strongly believe this is a good way to go for programming. It encourages of machine design, something that highly responsive RAD/IDE environments have moved peopleaway from. I increasingly find myself going back to doing a paper outline of a design before coding and encouraging that kind of approach could be a blessing in disguise! Also it could focus on the conceptual aspects of computers rather than the apparently compulsory 'hands on' for everything approach currently practiced in many schools (at least in the UK) >* accept hand-me-down equipment from corporations > seeking to upgrade, and wanting to donate amortized > equipment (perhaps for a tax write-off on top of > the amortization), train students to assemble > systems from cannibalized legacy systems This is actively pursued in the UK. The Government has various incentives for organizations to do this. Many schools (and voluntary adult education centres) benefit from this. >Basically, I think this is a bigger issue than just >whether junior has to have a computer to pass algebra. >It's about the potential rift in society, between haves >and have nots in the information age. Indeed. The current UK government have pledged to have a computer in every classsroom - by when???? Its a long way short of perfect but at least the right direction. But the other options above should be considered too. >basic tool for navigating our quasi-democracy and >those with an internet connection have many strategic >advantages over those without. If we're to do anything >more than give lipservice to democratic ideals, we have >to think of ways to make computers available to all who >want/need them. Public libraries have allways seemed like likely candidates for this on a wider front. But interestingly I've never seen a library with a PC that did anything other than permitting searches of the books in stock.... Alan G.

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