Mailman 3 September 2002 - Edu-sig

Re: [Edu-sig] Fw: Python sequences by reference - how to make
by Arthur 21 Sep '02

21 Sep '02

Guido writes - >What Kirby describes can be had by doing > >>> from copy import copy, deepcopy Which is obviously why I can't come up with a code example for my position. If wel are willing to make that the answer there is clearly nothing to discuss. >copy() nor deepcopy() is a built-in, because it is a potentially >expensive operation, and I feel that its presence as a built-in would >cause beginning and intermediate programmers to overuse it. My only counter argument is that this decision was made when Python had much, much fewer very,very specialized libraries. The expectation/perception of what it means to import a library module has evolved to the point to where it is counter-intututive to expect to need to import functionality like that added by copy - IMO. But my argument is circular in some sense - because I am contending that copy represents core functionality, or more accurately, a core conceptual idea. I am emphasizing *that* - the conceptual clues that one is given by seeing copy as a built-in, and you are emphasizing other concerns. I understand that you are often in the trade-off business - and I guess there is no harm in having some disagreement as to where the trade-offs might fall at this particular stage of the game. Art

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re: Python sequences by reference - how to make
by Arthur 20 Sep '02

20 Sep '02

Guido had written - >Until you have introspected enough to come up with an example I do not consider your testimony enough to change the >language. I think that is fair too. Unfortunately for all concerned I do try to continue to introspect. And will continue to express what I am coming up. And note as a side comment that this (the Python world) is the only forum in which I ever elected to consistently and unabashedly make a spectacle of myself. And I'm not a kid. Maybe its something about being a fish out of water - or perhaps I can be kinder to myself and point to the peculiarities of the forum. Not that I am not having fun, BTW. And what I'm zenning up from the nether regions is something to the effect that the centrality of the concept of copy is centrality in the negative. It is difficult to understand, at the beginning, what one is doing when doing a=b. And one way to begin to understand what that is, is to understand what that is not. With no "copy" clearly on the scene with which to coontrast, that particular important distinction does not have the opportunity to emerge. As I piece it together. Art

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Re: [Edu-sig] Top 5 All Time Novice Obstacles => #3 Where am I ?
by Lloyd Hugh Allen 20 Sep '02

20 Sep '02

> 11. >>> os.lstat.__doc__ > SG: > Had a problem with help(os.lstat)? And you were expecting maybe? > > 12. >>> print os.lstat.__doc__ > SG: > Hey buddy you looking to lstat or are we just playing games here? The __doc__ attribute of a function is documented (hee hee) in the tutorial, section 4.7.5. Granted that the tutorial is a lot easier to understand for folks who already have one language under their belt. It is also described extensively in Guido's style guide <http://www.python.org/doc/essays/styleguide.html>, and it is stated that doc strings should actually be helpful. Somehow I found out about doc strings, even though I was a newbie once...assuming that folks are learning Python with access to the web, and that they are reading tutorials and documentation instead of typing random characters a la Shakespearian monkeys waiting for a Python port of Unreal Tournament to appear on their terminal, they should be able to find doc strings fairly quickly. I know they're one of the first features that I teach, when I teach Python each summer.

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re: novice error ImportError
by Lloyd Hugh Allen 20 Sep '02

20 Sep '02

> >>> import leo > Traceback (most recent call last): > File "<pyshell#0>", line 1, in ? > import leo > ImportError: No module named leo If the module is opened and executed via f5 from IDLE, the path of its directory is added to the syspath. So (to take from an unquoted part of the message), if I run my helloworld.py the first time using this method, then later I'll be able to import (using >>> import foo) anything else that I wrote and kept in this directory. Yeah, doesn't help with leo. 'Course, Numeric, pygame, and others, have nice installers that add themselves to the os.path (at least, they run, and I didn't touch my os.path).

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Top 5 All Time Novice Obstacles => #2 Helping help
by Arthur 20 Sep '02

20 Sep '02

Title: ['Tough Love, or 'Are we paying attention yet?'] ---Scenario: Socratic Genie {SG} is holding forth--- 1. >>> import os You rang,master 2. >>> os SG: Yo, my name is,my name is,my name <module 'os' from 'C:\PYTHON22\lib\os.pyc'> 3. >>> dir(os) ['F_OK', 'O_APPEND', 'O_BINARY', 'O_CREAT', 'O_EXCL', 'O_RDONLY', 'O_RDWR', 'O_TEXT', 'O_TRUNC', 'O_WRONLY', 'P_DETACH', 'P_NOWAIT', 'P_NOWAITO', 'P_OVERLAY', 'P_WAIT', 'R_OK', 'TMP_MAX', 'UserDict', 'W_OK', 'X_OK', '_Environ', '__all__', '__builtins__', '__doc__', '__file__', '__name__', '_copy_reg', '_execvpe', '_exists', '_exit', '_get_exports_list', '_make_stat_result', '_make_statvfs_result', '_notfound', '_pickle_stat_result', '_pickle_statvfs_result', 'abort', 'access', 'altsep', 'chdir', 'chmod', 'close', 'curdir', 'defpath', 'dup', 'dup2', 'environ', 'error', 'execl', 'execle', 'execlp', 'execlpe', 'execv', 'execve', 'execvp', 'execvpe', 'extsep', 'fdopen', 'fstat', 'getcwd', 'getenv', 'getpid', 'i', 'isatty', 'linesep', 'listdir', 'lseek', 'lstat', 'makedirs', 'mkdir', 'name', 'open', 'pardir', 'path', 'pathsep', 'pipe', 'popen', 'popen2', 'popen3', 'popen4', 'putenv', 'read', 'remove', 'removedirs', 'rename', 'renames', 'rmdir', 'sep', 'spawnl', 'spawnle', 'spawnv', 'spawnve', 'startfile', 'stat', 'stat_result', 'statvfs_result', 'strerror', 'sys', 'system', 'tempnam', 'times', 'tmpfile', 'tmpnam', 'umask', 'unlink', 'unsetenv', 'utime', 'write'] SG: You're desire? 4. >>> os.lstat SG: Yo, my name is,my name is,my name <built-in function lstat> 5. >>> os.lstat() SG: Happy to lstat for you. Lstat what? 6. >>> ? os.lstat() SyntaxError: invalid syntax SG: Not even close. Why not try "ertjke;" for that matter? 7. >>> help SG: How hard did I make that? >Type help() for interactive help, or help(object) for help about object. Now you know what help is. Do you wish me to perform it? ["()", "perform" - anything getting through yet?] 8. >>> help(os.lstat()) Traceback (most recent call last): File "<pyshell#24>", line 1, in ? help(os.lstat()) TypeError: lstat() takes exactly 1 argument (0 given) Come on. help(object) was the incantation I suggested. Does () make an object a wish or a wish an object? 9. >>> help(os.lstat) SG: Are we learning something? Help on built-in function lstat: lstat(...) lstat(path) -> (st_mode, st_ino, st_dev, st_nlink, st_uid, st_gid, st_size, st_atime, st_mtime, st_ctime) Like stat(path), but do not follow symbolic links. 10. >>> os.lstat()__doc__ SyntaxError: invalid syntax SG: Now, do you *really* think a () belongs there? [patience, patience] 11. >>> os.lstat.__doc__ SG: Had a problem with help(os.lstat)? And you were expecting maybe? 12. >>> print os.lstat.__doc__ SG: Hey buddy you looking to lstat or are we just playing games here? SG QUESTION Have you enjoyed our session on the meaning of ()? Oh yeah .. and something about lstat came up to, didn't it?

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'Leo' => folding editor for Literate Programming
by Arthur 19 Sep '02

19 Sep '02

Jason writes: >Leo seems destined for Python classroom use & curricula design. >I see mention of upcoming wxWindows version of Leo Not sure I agree. From a Slashdot article included in the Leo docs, """Hello, my full name is David Speed Ream. I am known as Speed to friends and enemies alike, but I gladly answer to David or most any other handle. I am an unabashed and biased fan of Leo, the fact that it was written by my brother Edward only slightly coloring my already colored glasses. <snip> For me, Leo's greatest and only real drawback is the learning curve.""" The article seems to position Leo as a serious production programmers tool. A learning curve it seems to me worth tackling after one has become a serious enough programmer. Can't help using myself as an example. My position has been that time that might be spent learning programming tools is much better spent, at my stage of things, learning programming. And I am pretty well convinced that the type, cut, paste and run text editor with which I have become somewhat facile is all the tool I need at this point. Nor will I let myself buy new golf clubs til I break 90 with some consistency. Because I know the clubs ain't the problem, and only when I become better will I be able to take advantage of what is better about better clubs. Art

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'Leo' => folding editor for Literate Programming
by Jason Cunliffe 17 Sep '02

17 Sep '02

hmm... A thread on Flashcoders list [Flash ActionScript programming] about external editors introduced an interesting one: Leo """I know that a lot of folks have the same problems as i do - commenting code. I've found that 'outline editors' can really help with this kind of thing, and one that is excellent is Leo. It supports 'literate programming', but don't let that scare you! It just makes it easier to create the docs and the code at the same time. http://personalpages.tds.net/~edream/front.html Check out the online tutorial, and see what you think - its helped with the development and debugging of both python and flash projects. http://www.evisa.com/e/sbooks/leo/sbframetoc_ns.htm There is a quite active forum @ leo's source forge home too. http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=10226 Runs on all kinds of platforms, Open Source, etc etc... """ Here's a helpful testimonial also about it: http://personalpages.tds.net/~edream/SpeedReam.html "In actual practice, this organizational 'history' is so powerful that I can't begin to describe it. A reverse learning curve happens when an engineer gets a Leo file that already has the 'interrupt time sensitive' routines grouped together by the last unfortunate soul who had to work on them. There may not be any more written documentation, but the knowledge contained in the structure can be breathtaking. It is certainly timesaving. I find this particularly true in my own case. Often I'll look at some code that seems totally unfamiliar and think 'what idiot wrote this crap'. Then I'll look at the version control comments and realize that I wrote the crap. Then for sure I know the documentation is non-existent, but the clones I used to develop it are still there, and they always serve to refresh my memory in an indescribable way." ...................... PythonWin has nice folding editor because it is based on Scintilla. And PythonCard also? Python's implicit readability, docstrings, and white space indentation make it especially suitable for folding editors. Leo seems to go further with this than others. The idea invites some edu-sig insights. I am mostly suspicious of editors which junk up my screen with clunky symbols, like those ghastly early HTML ones. But also a happy veteran/fan of folding 'outline' editors. I had one {in EPROM} on my first computer - a Radio Shack Tandy Model 100 laptop. Since the screen was only a 8 lines high, it made especially ingenious good sense! What do you think? ./Jason ______________________________________________ Jason Cunliffe [NOMADICS: Director art+design] Tel/fax: +1 718 422-1078 jasonic(a)nomadics.org N 43:00.000' W 074:31.875' ALT:1144 ft 84 Henry Street #3C Brooklyn NY 11201 USA

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Edu-Harvest 2002 => Blender Foundation
by Jason Cunliffe 16 Sep '02

16 Sep '02

Greetings I have posted here before about 'Blender', a powerful 3D modeling and animation software developed by Ton Roosendaal in Netherlands. Blender had selected Python for its scripting platform, and all sorts of good things were emerging from the combination.. Then the early this summer some really bad news struck - Blender was dead. Sudden victim of the cruel bankruptcy and legal problems of NaN its holding company. The very lively Blender community is mostly European, with strong in Holland and France. And they were shocked but motivated by the news. Even though Blender software had been freely downloadable, it was never open. Perhaps that had something to do with NaN's business problems, but probably not since they were a service company selling 3D animation, not a software vendor. Blender was an evolving by-product of tools the NaN design team used in-house. Then, as only you might expect from the enlightened and pragmatic Dutch, on Friday July 5 came some rare and surprising good news: "New future for Blender as Free Software! Today the shareholders of NaN Holding have reached an agreement on the outlines for a new future for Blender. In general it means that a non-profit organization (the Blender Foundation) will be enabled to execute its plans, including Blender development as an 'open source' or 'free software' project..." Two weeks later on July 18th, an online campaign started to raise the money to buy Blender's freedom so it can continue a new life as GPL openSource project. A month later a progress graph of donations was posted: http://www.blender3d.com/meter_report.html On week ago on Sept 7th, it was announced tada.. $100 [Euro] had been collected, enough to guarantee releasing Blender's source! The Open Blender project rolls forth. You can read more about it, and register for your membership participation if so inclined at: http://www.blender3d.com/ ./Jason ______________________________________________ Jason Cunliffe [NOMADICS: Director art+design] Tel/fax: +1 718 422-1078 jasonic(a)nomadics.org N 43:00.000' W 074:31.875' ALT:1144 ft 84 Henry Street #3C Brooklyn NY 11201 USA

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Invitation to SSGRR conferences in ITALY!
by ssgrr2003w＠rti7020.etf.bg.ac.yu 16 Sep '02

16 Sep '02

CALL FOR PAPERS AND PARTICIPATION AT SSGRR CONFERENCES IN YEAR 2003 The SSGRR (Scuola Superiore G Reiss Romoli) Congress Center, Telecom Italia Learning Services, L'Aquila (near Rome), ITALY (www.ssgrr.it). Respected Dr. We are honored to invite you to submit and present your paper(s) at the two SSGRR conferences specified below: INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCES ON ADVANCES IN INFRASTRUCTURE FOR ELECTRONIC BUSINESS, EDUCATION, SCIENCE, MEDICINE, AND MOBILE TECHNOLOGIES ON THE INTERNET WINTER Conference 2003: >From Monday January 6 at 5pm till Sunday January 12 at 10am To submit paper or ask questions: ssgrr2003w(a)rti7020.etf.bg.ac.yu Keynotes: Lyman (Berkeley), Neuhold (Fraunhofer), Neal (Tufts Medical School), ... SUMMER Conference 2003: >From Monday July 28 at 5pm till Sunday August 3 at 10am To submit paper or ask questions: ssgrr2003s(a)rti7020.etf.bg.ac.yu Keynotes: Kroto (Nobel Laureate), Patt (IEEE Eckert-Mauchly Laureate), Carlton (US Air Force Surgeon General), ... For details, see IEEE COMPUTER, Aug 2002 (page 33) and the WWW site www.ssgrr.it (written carefully+precisely, with answers to all FAQ). Check with past participants (their names/emails are on the WWW). Most of them believe this is the most interesting, rewarding, and definitely the most hospitable conference they ever attended! Fast professional and peer review in 15 days. Capacity of the SSGRR congress center is 200 participants. The list of participants will be closed after 200 papers accepted. Consequently, SUBMIT YOUR PAPER(S) AS EARLY AS POSSIBLE! ______________________________________________________________________ Location (see WWW for details): SSGRR is the DE-LUX congress and education center of the Telecom Italia Learning Services, located about 60 miles from Rome, near Gran Sasso (the highest Appenini peak), with fast access to the major Appenini ski resorts (in winters, 15 minutes by car), and Adriatic sea beaches (in summers, 45 minutes by car). Keynotes (see WWW for details): A Nobel Laureate was the keynote speaker each year in the past (Jerome Friedman of MIT, Robert Richardson of Cornell, etc...), and the major 2003 keynote is also reserved for a Nobel Laureate (Harry Kroto from United Kingdom). Other 2003 keynote speakers are Yale Patt from UofTexas@Austin (an IEEE Eckert-Mauchly Laureate), Paul Carlton (US Air Force Surgeon General), etc. Schedule (see WWW for details): Monday = Arrival day, registration, and cocktail Tuesday = Gran Sasso Nat'l Lab tour, tutorials, and opening ceremony Wednesday/Thursday/Friday = Presentation of research papers Saturday = Tutorials and peripathetic discussions Sunday = Departure day Deadlines (see WWW for details): For title and abstract (about 100 words): October 15, 2002 (for Winter 2003) April 30, 2003 (for Summer 2003) For papers (IEEE Transactions format, min 4 pages, max 1MB): November 15, 2002 (for Winter 2003) May 30, 2003 (for Summer 2003) For payment (stay, and fee if applicable): December 10, 2002 (for Winter 2003) June 30, 2003 (for Summer 2003) Payment (see WWW for details): No conference fee for those with papers to present (others: euro600). No fee for tutorials. All participants must stay inside SSGRR (no outside stays allowed). Full 6-day stay (from Monday evening till Sunday breakfast): euro1200. A 5-day stay (without one tutorial day): euro1000. Minimal 4-day stay (for research papers only): euro 800. Favourable conditions for accompanying persons (see the WWW). For late payment rules see the WWW. Important (see WWW for details): When submitting your paper, insert the 3-letter field code (exact codes on WWW), so the placement of papers per sessions is more efficient. Insert your WWW site URL (if you have one). If you submit a paper, you will get 2 other papers for a fast review (in up to 10 days). Your presentation time is 25 minutes, plus 5 minutes for discussions. Chairman of the session is the presenter of the last paper in that session. Moving of presentation slots is not permitted (in cases of non-show-up). If you like to be reinvited for a future SSGRR conference, let us know. If you like to be removed from the list, please let us know, too. WE HOPE TO SEE YOU AT SSGRR! Professor Veljko Milutinovic, General Chairman

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Jython => BlenderMeter
by Jason Cunliffe 16 Sep '02

16 Sep '02

http://www.jol-tech.net/blendermeter/ BlenderMeter is a small Jython Application that will track the status of the Blender Fund. [distributed it as a standalone Application for several platforms] ./Jason

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