Mailman 3 January 2003 - Edu-sig

Losing the plot
by ahimsa 23 Jan '03

23 Jan '03

Greetings Aside from the usual internicine bickerings common to most mailing lists, could someone on this list please take the trouble to answer a question that I have asked previously and that I saw someone else raise recently: what is the probable future of the CP4E project, and have any alternatives to it been considered/discussed? How does Art's PyGeo project fit into the Edu-SIG framework? Is there anything that interested parties could do to assist in carrying the project forward in some way (aside from donating big bucks to the project - sorry). Thanks for your time Andrew

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re: license
by Arthur 22 Jan '03

22 Jan '03

I wrote - >What has changed is that I feel less helpless and resigned to the situation. >Guido urging me to undertake disutils was the key to that. I thanked him. >And have no problem thanking him again. Sort of feel I stumbled here into a definition - to me - of the significance of CP4E. And it's more than appropriate that Guido's name comes up in the middle of it. Art

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re: license
by Arthur 22 Jan '03

22 Jan '03

>BTW, the package is apparently VPython, based on the conversation on >edu-sig. It seems to me that making an advisory along with the patch >would be a much more appropriate behavior. Yes, as I said on edu-sig, I understand that is my only reasonable option. But its a bigger job than the 4 key strokes, in my hands. Because in my hands I will attempt to make it fully comply with sound practice for the distribution of a Python 3rd party module. The overwrite problem issue I focus on is the one that makes the contribution unlivable. There are a many other issues that make it simply a bad non-compliant distribution. A community of people working reasonably cooperatively in an effort toward exploring the potential of Python in education was one of the things I thought and hoped CP4E would be about. But as I say repeated on edu-sig, I have come to understand myself to be in fact a fish quite out of water in this world of free software and whatever it is the "community" in the Python community represents. Expressing the wish, out loud, that someone else who is taking advantage of the community's productivity might act a bit more reasonably and less selfishly as a community member is seen by (at least some) of the community as an assault on that community. Its too complex for my simple mind. My continuing alienation from the community, frankly, is one of the things that makes me resent having to take on the project of bringing the VPython project into compliance with what are, I think, very reasonable community expectations as to how a 3rd party module should install and behave. Super ironic, too me, that the reaction should be "shut up,and kill a few more weekends for the good of the cause". Of course, the other solution is to overwrite his help file with my help file. That would indeed be 4 keystrokes. And than I could be the guy sitting on ten thousand lines of code, driving my pet toy. Unfortunately, thats not who I am. And please. What advisory do you have in mind. Art

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re: VPython followup
by Arthur 21 Jan '03

21 Jan '03

Jason unfortunately I need to comment: >I've been out of the VPython and idlefork loops, but inspired by the recent >install problems Art experiencd with latest PyGeo I wrote directly to Bruce >Sherwood [VPython author]. BRUCE SHERWOOD IS NOT THE VPYTHON AUTHOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is comment one. VPython is copywrite, David Scherer. BUT I CAN CERTAINLY UNDERSTAND HOW THAT CONFUSION COULD ARISE. >With his permission I quoting from his replies correspondence to me: >It was not clear how to deal with this issue, but help is on the way. Soon >the standard IDLE distributed with Python will be replaced by the idlefork >project, based on David Scherer's original major revision of IDLE as >distributed with VPython. The new IDLE has a good mechanism for dealing with >multiple help files, which was not available in the past. At that point I'll >be able to change the VPython installer to avoid the current problem. Problem? Is there a problem? There was a 4 keystroke solution to the problem, since day one. It was handed to him on a platter. He opted for the more elegant solution of CONTINUING TO OVERWRITE PYTHON OWN HELP INDEX FOR NO DAMN REASON. He did not see the problem then. He does still not see the problem. See below. >Currently the VPython installers do not use distutils, because using a >distutils-based installer is difficult for the novices who are common among >the VPython users. For example, on Windows you need to bring up a commands >window and cd to an appropriate directory and invoke Python.... I know from >actual experience with college students that this is way beyond what works >in that environment. It is however likely that distutils would be the right >tool for Linux and Unix installations. I personally have no patience with hearing about Bruce's remarks about his "actual experience with college students". And their ineptitude. Even after the division thing was settled, HE WAS STILL GOING TO USE A PATCHED PYTHON BECAUSE HIS STUDENTS COULD NOT BE EXPECTED TO HANDLE THE IMPORT STATEMENT TO GET THE NEW BEHAVIOR HE LOBBIED FOR. I AM CONVINCED IF HE SPENT 20 MINUTES OF CLASS TIME EXPLANING THE UNDERLYING ISSUE OF THE OLD DIV STATEMENT - NUMERIC TYPING BASIC BASICS - THE ISSUE WOULD HAVE BEEN TINY. HE FAILED TO PROVIDE HIS STUDENTS WITH ESSENTIAL INFORMATION AND THEN REPORTED THAT THEY WERE CONFUSED. CONFUSION IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU AREN"T GIVEN PERTINENT AND ESSENTIAL INFORMATION - YOU GET CONFUSED. MAKE THEM LESS INEPT, AND STOP TELLING US HOW INPET THEY ARE. Besides the fact that he is dead wrong about the disutils operations on Windows. >And then some further comments today... """ A question: What problems have there actually been with this? I have heard complaints that VPython isn't doing the right thing, but these complaints seem rather theoretical, in that I don't know in what way anyone has actually been significantly inconvenienced concerning the help situation. """ VINTAGE BRUCE, is all I can say. Art It seems to be Guido's intent that idlefork replace the standard idle with the final release of Python 2.3. If the new idlefork works for VPython, we would start using it right away. Unfortunately there are no guarantees, because at the moment VPython does NOT work with the new idlefork. You can't quit a VPython program as you could with the original idlefork. """ If any of you can help this along please do.. Seems like we are all very close to having happy re-solution now. thanks ./Jason ______________________________________________ Jason Cunliffe [NOMADICS: Director art+design] Tel/fax: +1 718 422-1078 jasonic(a)nomadics.org N 43:00.000' W 074:31.875' ALT:1144 ft 84 Henry Street #3C Brooklyn NY 11201 USA

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VPython followup
by Jason Cunliffe 21 Jan '03

21 Jan '03

I've been out of the VPython and idlefork loops, but inspired by the recent install problems Art experiencd with latest PyGeo I wrote directly to Bruce Sherwood [VPython author]. With his permission I quoting from his replies correspondence to me: """ It was not clear how to deal with this issue, but help is on the way. Soon the standard IDLE distributed with Python will be replaced by the idlefork project, based on David Scherer's original major revision of IDLE as distributed with VPython. The new IDLE has a good mechanism for dealing with multiple help files, which was not available in the past. At that point I'll be able to change the VPython installer to avoid the current problem. Currently the VPython installers do not use distutils, because using a distutils-based installer is difficult for the novices who are common among the VPython users. For example, on Windows you need to bring up a commands window and cd to an appropriate directory and invoke Python.... I know from actual experience with college students that this is way beyond what works in that environment. It is however likely that distutils would be the right tool for Linux and Unix installations. """ And then some further comments today... """ A question: What problems have there actually been with this? I have heard complaints that VPython isn't doing the right thing, but these complaints seem rather theoretical, in that I don't know in what way anyone has actually been significantly inconvenienced concerning the help situation. It seems to be Guido's intent that idlefork replace the standard idle with the final release of Python 2.3. If the new idlefork works for VPython, we would start using it right away. Unfortunately there are no guarantees, because at the moment VPython does NOT work with the new idlefork. You can't quit a VPython program as you could with the original idlefork. """ If any of you can help this along please do.. Seems like we are all very close to having happy re-solution now. thanks ./Jason ______________________________________________ Jason Cunliffe [NOMADICS: Director art+design] Tel/fax: +1 718 422-1078 jasonic(a)nomadics.org N 43:00.000' W 074:31.875' ALT:1144 ft 84 Henry Street #3C Brooklyn NY 11201 USA

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re: license
by Arthur 21 Jan '03

21 Jan '03

That post was on purpose. Art

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Re: Re: [Edu-sig] re: license
by ajs＠ix.netcom.com 21 Jan '03

21 Jan '03

>I think you over-stress this self image. Some people disagree >with some of your points, as is natural in a free wheeling give >and take world. Others don't find the axes you grind >particularly interesting. Others agree with some of your points. Stop being reasonable and asking me to be so also. I hate that. But of all the messages of the "re:license" thread that illustrates my sense of things - my feelings (yes, I said "feelings") was the one by Dr. David Mertz - a profilic Python popularizer. (aka Lulu of the Lotus Eaters): """ "Arthur" <ajs@i...> wrote previously: |>BTW, you still haven't mentioned the package. Tell me THE PACKAGE!!! ;) |I am *never* discrete. |But at my age, an opportunity for a new experience is rare. s/discrete/obnoxious/ s/rare/elsewhere/ """ I honestly don't know what it means. I'm suspecting it doesn't mean something nice, but that's not the point. The point is that it is a message, from my perspective, from the intiated to the initiated. My alienation from the community is a 2 way street though. To a large extent I see it as a community of initiates - which is fine - with a core belief that it is something else; which is not fine. If it wants to be something else, it needs to find a way to try harder. CP4E! Art

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Computer Programing for Everybody
by Arthur 20 Jan '03

20 Jan '03

Brad asks - >Does anyone know about work at CMU Yep. But I don't think you want to hear about it from me, particularly. Long story, Brad Art

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Time flys like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana.
by Will Well 20 Jan '03

20 Jan '03

Bob, I trust all's well with you too. Candy wrote she spoke with you. I did not want to bother you, yet of course grateful for your input. Thank you, the praxis is clearer, i.e. we have the police report stating we are free from fault, thus right to claim compensation from the other parts insurance company -- good. Regards, stay well cousin, Yours sincerely, Larry (aka Will Well) -- ______________________________________________ http://www.linuxmail.org/ Now with POP3/IMAP access for only US$19.95/yr Powered by Outblaze

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re: license
by Arthur 20 Jan '03

20 Jan '03

Terry - >You may not like how that developer's package works. I personally agree >with your opinion on the design issue (at least as far as I understand you >-- I haven't seen the rebuttal, only your statement that you didn't >understand it, which is hardly a strong case). But as I posted, you already >have perfectly adequate remedies for it: >* Use somebody else's package if there is one. >* Make your own replacement (by patching or forking if possible). OK, OK - I hereby put the license issue aside. But I am also makling Free Software. Not only am I making Free Software, I am making it during my Free Time. Yes, I can replace, fork, patch, redistribute. port, recode whatever. All of which is time consuming. And, in this case, should be totally unnecessary. I am asking the distributor to do no more than bring his distribution into reasonable compliance with normal practice, because I am otherwise uncomfortable - trying myself to adhere to good practice - asking my users to download that distribution. Is the Free Software world possible, without some voluntary adherence to standards? Art

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