Mailman 3 May 2012 - Mailman-Users

Giving away the secrets of 99.3% email delivery
by David 14 May '12

14 May '12

Is this an appropriate place to discuss the broader topic of how to best use Mailman? Now that we have it running well, we would like to take additional steps to ensure that the list's emails are delivered as well as they can be. The 37Signals article caught my attention. I would enjoy knowing others's thoughts about how to apply these (or other) suggestions to Mailman. It seems to me that Mailman provides at least some of the intelligence (via logs) that 37Signals custom developed on top of Postfix. Am I right? The core suggestions seem to be universalL SPF records, DKIM signing, reverse DNS entries, etc.. (And, btw, I don't yet know how to implement any of those things except SPF records.) Giving away the secrets of 99.3% email delivery<http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3096-giving-away-the-secrets-of-993-email-de…> We send a lot of mail for Basecamp <http://basecamphq.com/?source=svn_post>, Highrise <http://highrisehq.com/?source=svn_post>, Backpack<http://backpackit.com/?source=svn_post>, and Campfire <http://campfirenow.com/?source=svn_post> (and some for Sortfolio <http://sortfolio.com>, the Jobs Board <http://jobs.37signals.com>, Writeboard <http://writeboard.com>, and Tadalist <http://tadalist>). One of the most frequently asked questions we get is about how we handle mail delivery and ensure that emails are making it to people’s inboxes. Some statistics First, some numbers to give a little context to what we mean by “a lot” of email. In the last 7 days, we’ve sent just shy of 16 million emails, with approximately 99.3% of them being accepted by the remote mail server. Email delivery rate is a little bit of a tough thing to benchmark, but by most accounts we’re doing pretty well at those rates (for comparison, the tiny fraction of email that we use a third party for has had between a 96.9% and 98.6% delivery rate for our most recent mailings). How we send email We send almost all of our outgoing email from our own servers in our data center located just outside of Chicago. We use Campaign Monitor<http://campaignmonitor.com>for our mailing lists, but all of the email that’s generated by our applications is sent from our own servers. We run three mail-relay servers running Postfix that take mail from our application and jobs servers and queue it for delivery to tens of thousands of remote mail servers, sending from about 15 unique IP addresses. How we monitor delivery We have developed some instrumentation so we can monitor how we are doing on getting messages to our users’ inbox. Our applications tag each outgoing message with a unique header with a hashed value that gets recorded by the application before the message is sent. To gather delivery information, we run a script that tails the Postfix logs and extracts the delivery time and status for each piece of mail, including any error message received from the receiving mail server, and links it back to the hash the application stored. We store this information for 30 days so that our fantastic support team <http://smiley.37signals.com> is able to help customers track down why they may not have received an email. We also send these statistics to our statsd server so they can be reported through our metrics dashboard. This “live” and historical information can then be used by our operations team to check how we’re doing on aggregate mail delivery for each application. Why run your own mail servers? Over the last few years, at least a dozen services that specialize in sending email have popped up, ranging from the bare-bones to the full-service. Despite all these “email as a service” startups we’ve kept our mail delivery in-house, for a couple of reasons: - *We don’t know anyone who could do it better.* With a 99.3% delivery rate, we haven’t found a third party provider that actually does better in a way they’re willing to guarantee. - *Setup hassle* Most of the third party services require that you verify each address that sends email by clicking a link that gets sent to that address. We send email from thousands and thousands of email addresses for our products, and the hassle of automatically registering and confirming them is significant. Automating the process still introduces unnecessary delivery delays. Given all this, why should we pay someone tens of thousands of dollars to do it? We shouldn’t, and we don’t. *Read more about how we keep delivery rates high after the jump…* How we keep our mail delivery rates up Lets be honest from the get-go. Mail delivery is more of an art than a science. We’ve found that even when you “play by the rules”, there’s still times when a major provider will reject all your mail without notice. Usually it takes a couple emails to to the providers abuse address, and things get resolved. In spite of these “out of our control” issues, we’ve found a few things help us keep delivery rates up: 1. *Constantly monitor spam blacklists<https://raw.github.com/37signals/37s_cookbooks/edefbd17eeb8f25f6d42a01e7f20…> .* We have a set of Nagios alerts that regularly check if we’re listed on any delivery blacklists, and whenever they go off we take whatever corrective action we need to get back off the blacklist. 2. Have valid SPF <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sender_Policy_Framework>records. Don’t impersonate your users. When running a web app like Basecamp <http://basecamphq.com/?source=svn_post>, which sends email that are generated by another user, it can be tempting to send the email from that user (e.g., so that a comment I wrote on Basecamp would appear to come from noah at 37signals dot com), which might make people feel more comfortable. Unfortunately, this is a surefire way to end up on spam lists, since you’ll likely be sending from an IP address that does not have the valid SPF records. And chances are, if the user’s domain does have an SPFrecord, it doesn’t include your application’s IP. 3. Sign the mail! DKIM and Domain Keys <http://www.dkim.org/>. Yahoo and Gmail both score signed email higher. 4. Dedicated and conditioned email sending IPs. 5. Configure reverse dns entries<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_DNS_lookup>. Most of the “big boys” won’t accept mail from your servers if your reverse dns entries don’t match. You might need your IP provider to help with setting up these records. 6. Enroll in feedback loops<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feedback_loop_%28email%29>. We haven’t automated our parsing of feedback, but a daily / weekly review of feedback loop emails helps us know when there’s an unhappy user, or other problem. Too many complaints and you’ve got trouble. A problem we haven’t solved By far the biggest cause of failed email delivery we see is due to bad email addresses that were entered in to the system—problems like ‘ joe(a)gmal.xn--com-to0a or ‘sue(a)yahooo.xn--com-to0a. By and large, these pass a regular expression check for email addresses, but aren’t actually valid addresses. There’s no perfect solution here, but we’ve been experimenting with checking for valid DNS records or actually attempting to connect to the mail server as part of the validation of an email address, and with notifying people within the application when we aren’t able to deliver mail to them. A few tools - MX Toolbox <http://www.mxtoolbox.com> is a great site for doing a quick check on your mail servers and your customer’s mail servers. - Sender Score <https://www.senderscore.org/> is really a marketing tool for Return Path, but it can be used to get insight about how some of the “big boys” are scoring your sending IPs. - Postmark <http://spamcheck.postmarkapp.com/> offers a web tool and APIto get the SpamAssassin score for a message, which can be helpful for identifying things you can improve to boost delivery rates.

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Help needed, mailing list deleted!
by Amit Bhatt 13 May '12

13 May '12

Hi all, Some hacker has deleted our mailing list using backdoor shell spyware. I expected my service provider would retrieve the list by restoring full backup. they restored the data, but mailing list is still not there! Now, is there anyway to get it back? or we have to create new mailing list. Since the above incidence is very shocking and disturbing for me and our subscribers, I would anticipate any ultimate and best possible solutions from you experts on this board. Regards, Amit Bhatt

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Migration Problem - No Publicly Advertised Lists
by Dennis Putnam 13 May '12

13 May '12

After following the instructions for migrating mailman to a new server (http://wiki.list.org/display/DOC/How+do+I+move+a+list+to+a+different+server….), I am having trouble with the listinfo page saying there are no publicly advertised lists. I ran 'withlist' and the output appeared normal. Everything else seems to be working other than managing lists via the web pages.

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Owner, moderator and sender doesn't receive notification
by Alain Lavoie 11 May '12

11 May '12

Hello, I have 2 servers with Ubuntu 10.04 and mailman 2.1.13-1ubuntu0.2 Both servers have the same problem, the owner and/or the moderator of the list don't receive notification of pending request. Also the sender does not receive a notification saying his email was hold. Each server hosts about 330 lists. It is not an individual configuration but it's on all of them. As administrator, I verified the option admin_immed_notify was at yes. To be sure I have everything set correctly, I created my own mailing list with my email, etc. and it is not working. I can't see anything in the postfix log or mailman logs. The only clue I have is when I start mailman I have this: # /etc/init.d/mailman start close failed in file object destructor: Error in sys.excepthook: Original exception was: * Starting Mailman master qrunner mailmanctl # Any help would be very appreciated! Regards! _______________________ Alain Lavoie

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how to remove a member of a mailing list with a command?
by Ma, Yuan 11 May '12

11 May '12

Hi, The web interface does not work. I am wondering how to remove a member of a mailing list with a command? Thank you very much in advance. Yuan

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Help with Bounce Processing
by Futchko, Rose 10 May '12

10 May '12

Good Afternoon, We are using Mailman 2.15 and have an unusual problem that I was hoping that someone can help me with. We have close to 109 lists running successfully, however there are times when bounce processing sends the following message (over 100 times) in the span of a few hours to one user/subscriber to the list. They are not the admin: This is a Mailman mailing list bounce action notice: List: list-society Member: Name Action: Subscription disabled. Reason: Excessive or fatal bounces. The triggering bounce notice is attached below. Questions? Contact the Mailman site administrator at <><><><><><> The original message was received at Mon, 7 May 2012 09:50:13 -0400 from localhost [127.0.0.1] ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- (reason: 550 5.1.1 unknown or illegal user: (reason: 550 #5.1.0 Address rejected.) (reason: 550 Host unknown) I understand why a user would get this message if they exceeded their threshold, but why are over 100 of the same messages being sent to one individual. Thank you, RF

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SPF MAIL FROM check failed: [MAIL_FROM]
by David 10 May '12

10 May '12

On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 4:01 PM, David <dave(a)fiteyes.com> wrote: > Re: Giving away the secrets of 99.3% email delivery > > 1. Constantly monitor spam blacklists. We have a set of Nagios alerts that regularly check if we’re listed on any delivery blacklists, and whenever they go off we take whatever corrective action we need to get back off the blacklist. > 2. Have valid SPF records. Don’t impersonate your users. When running a web app like Basecamp, which sends email that are generated by another user, it can be tempting to send the email from that user (e.g., so that a comment I wrote on Basecamp would appear to come from noah at 37signals dot com), which might make people feel more comfortable. Unfortunately, this is a surefire way to end up on spam lists, since you’ll likely be sending from an IP address that does not have the valid SPF records. And chances are, if the user’s domain does have an SPF record, it doesn’t include your application’s IP. > 3. Sign the mail! DKIM and Domain Keys. Yahoo and Gmail both score signed email higher. > 4. Dedicated and conditioned email sending IPs. > 5. Configure reverse dns entries. Most of the “big boys” won’t accept mail from your servers if your reverse dns entries don’t match. You might need your IP provider to help with setting up these records. > 6. Enroll in feedback loops. We haven’t automated our parsing of feedback, but a daily / weekly review of feedback loop emails helps us know when there’s an unhappy user, or other problem. Too many complaints and you’ve got trouble. I started by setting up an SPF record (#2 on the list above). However, shortly after setting it up, we got a bounce with this reason: SPF MAIL FROM check failed: [MAIL_FROM] I searched a bit and came across things like this: http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.org.user-groups.linux.new-zealand.general/3… But nothing I found answered my questions. Looking at the headers of the bounced message, I note: Received-SPF: pass (domain of lists.example.com designates 10.10.10.99 as permitted sender) X-Originating-IP: [10.10.10.99] That would seem to indicate things are OK, but maybe X-Originating-IP isn't the line I need to be looking at... I'm not sure what [MAIL_FROM] (in the SPF check failed line) matches in the email header. Also, I note: X-YahooFilteredBulk: 10.10.10.99 <-- what does "X-YahooFilteredBulk" mean? And there is another value for this field. X-Originating-IP: [76.21.140.158] These are the headers of the bounced message: Subject: Failure Notice Sorry, we were unable to deliver your message to the following address. <recipient(a)destination.com.br>: Remote host said: 550 5.7.1 SPF MAIL FROM check failed: [MAIL_FROM] --- Below this line is a copy of the message. Received: from [72.30.22.79] by nm1.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 May 2012 21:51:02 -0000 Received: from [68.142.200.224] by tm13.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 May 2012 21:51:02 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.102] by t5.bullet.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 May 2012 21:51:01 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1007.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 May 2012 21:51:01 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 502900.95307.bm(a)omp1007.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Forwarded: from recipient(a)destination.com to recipient(a)destination.com.br Return-Path: <all-bounces(a)lists.example.com> X-YahooFilteredBulk: 10.10.10.99 Received-SPF: pass (domain of lists.example.com designates 10.10.10.99 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx X-Originating-IP: [10.10.10.99] Authentication-Results: mta1017.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com from= lists.example.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=att.net; dkim=permerror (bad sig) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO localhost) (10.10.10.99) by mta1017.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com with SMTP; Wed, 09 May 2012 14:51:01 -0700 Received: from myhost.hostingprovider.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9CA1123AB; Wed, 9 May 2012 21:43:23 +0000 (UTC) X-Original-To: list(a)lists.example.com Delivered-To: list(a)lists.example.com Received: from fmailhost01.isp.att.net (fmailhost01.isp.att.net [204.127.217.101]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D84D123A4 for <list(a)lists.example.com>; Wed, 9 May 2012 20:52:06 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; q=dns/txt; d=att.net; s=dkim01; i=member1(a)domain.net; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1336596725; h=Content-Type: MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:To: From; yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy Received: from homecomputer3 (c-76-21-140-158.hsd1.va.comcast.net[76.21.140.158]) by worldnet.att.net (frfwmhc01) with SMTP id <20120509205204H0100sdv2pe>; Wed, 9 May 2012 20:52:05 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [76.21.140.158] From: "Member One" <member1(a)domain.net> To: "'Example Discussion'" <list(a)lists.example.com> References: < 13283191.1336591910177.JavaMail.root(a)wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: < 13283191.1336591910177.JavaMail.root(a)wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 16:52:07 -0400 Message-ID: <!&!aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa==(a)att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: xyxyzyzy Content-Language: en-us X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 09 May 2012 21:43:22 +0000 Subject: [Example Discussion 110] Re: Example Subject X-BeenThere: list(a)lists.example.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Example Discussion <list(a)lists.example.com> List-Id: Example Discussion <all.lists.example.com> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.example.com/m/options/all>, <mailto:all-request@lists.example.com?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.example.com/archive/all> List-Post: <mailto:list@lists.example.com> List-Help: <mailto:all-request@lists.example.com?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.example.com/m/listinfo/all>, <mailto:all-request@lists.example.com?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4254722804560345795==" Errors-To: all-bounces(a)lists.example.com Sender: all-bounces(a)lists.example.com

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Message delivery and Logs
by David 10 May '12

10 May '12

> Ian Prietz wrote: > > > >We have multiple lists set up with our Mailman host. We have had some > >delivery issues recently. One of the new lists has had some real trouble getting the > >messages delivered. However, there are members of "LIST A" that are also > >member of the problem list, "LIST B". > > > might possibly be related to a recipient's > having list_a-bounces at example.com but not list_b-bounces at example.com > in her address book. > -- > Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> Mark, In your response above, why did you specify that "list_a-bounces at example.com" should be added to the recipient's address book instead of "list_a at example.com"?

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Dumb Me Tried to Update Mandriva (Again)
by Dennis Putnam 10 May '12

10 May '12

As usual my attempt to update Mandriva has destroyed Mailman. This time the update failed and rather than move forward, I reverted back to the working version (2010.2). However, I must have missed something because I am getting the following error when I try to access Mailman web: Apr 28 16:07:42 2012 admin(17726): @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ pr 28 16:07:42 2012 admin(17726): @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ admin(17726): [----- Mailman Version: 2.1.13 -----] admin(17726): [----- Traceback ------] admin(17726): Traceback (most recent call last): admin(17726): File "/usr/lib/mailman/scripts/driver", line 97, in run_main admin(17726): pkg = __import__('Mailman.Cgi', globals(), locals(), [scriptname]) admin(17726): File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 35, in <module> admin(17726): from Mailman import MailList admin(17726): File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 64, in <module> admin(17726): from Mailman import Gui admin(17726): File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Gui/__init__.py", line 25, in <module> admin(17726): from Privacy import Privacy admin(17726): File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Gui/Privacy.py", line 28, in <module> admin(17726): from Mailman import GPGUtils admin(17726): File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/GPGUtils.py", line 32, in <module> admin(17726): import GnuPGInterface admin(17726): ImportError: No module named GnuPGInterface admin(17726): sys.version = 2.7.2 (default, Dec 19 2011, 09:56:13) [GCC 4.6.1 20110627 (Mandriva)] admin(17726): sys.executable = /usr/bin/python admin(17726): sys.prefix = /usr admin(17726): sys.exec_prefix = /usr admin(17726): sys.path = /usr admin(17726): sys.platform = linux2 admin(17726): [----- Environment Variables -----] admin(17726): SSL_VERSION_INTERFACE: mod_ssl/2.2.22 admin(17726): SSL_CIPHER_EXPORT: false admin(17726): SSL_SERVER_S_DN_Email: xxxxxxx(a)xxxxxxxx.net admin(17726): SERVER_SOFTWARE: Apache/2.2.22 (Mandriva Linux/PREFORK-0.1mdv2010.2) admin(17726): SCRIPT_NAME: /mailman/admin admin(17726): SSL_SERVER_A_KEY: rsaEncryption admin(17726): SSL_SERVER_S_DN_ST: Georgia admin(17726): SERVER_SIGNATURE: <address>Apache/2.2.22 (Mandriva Linux/PREFORK-0.1mdv2010.2) Server at xxxxx.xxxxxxxx.com Port 443</address> admin(17726): admin(17726): REQUEST_METHOD: GET admin(17726): SERVER_PROTOCOL: HTTP/1.1 admin(17726): SSL_SERVER_S_DN: /C=US/ST=xxxxxxxx/L=xxxxxxxxx/O=xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/CN=xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxx.com/emailAddress=xxxxxxx(a)xxxxxxxx.net admin(17726): SSL_CIPHER: DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA admin(17726): SSL_SERVER_V_START: Mar 18 13:32:36 2011 GMT admin(17726): SSL_SESSION_ID: 66E6AC1408845A20EC6F56C140D2BED471A632BD7C03FC89503B0B611F1B2A18 admin(17726): SSL_CLIENT_VERIFY: NONE admin(17726): SSL_SERVER_I_DN_ST: xxxxxxxxxxx admin(17726): HTTP_CONNECTION: keep-alive admin(17726): SERVER_NAME: xxxxx.xxxxxxxx.com admin(17726): REMOTE_ADDR: 74.176.153.13 admin(17726): SSL_CIPHER_ALGKEYSIZE: 256 admin(17726): SSL_SECURE_RENEG: true admin(17726): SSL_SERVER_I_DN: /C=US/ST=xxxxxxxx/L=xxxxxxxxx/O=xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/CN=localhost/emailAddress=xxxxxxx(a)xxxxxxxx.net admin(17726): SSL_SERVER_I_DN_C: US admin(17726): SSL_COMPRESS_METHOD: NULL admin(17726): SSL_SERVER_I_DN_L: Loganville admin(17726): SSL_SERVER_I_DN_O: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx admin(17726): SSL_SERVER_M_SERIAL: 01 admin(17726): SERVER_ADDR: 192.168.0.3 admin(17726): DOCUMENT_ROOT: /var/www/html admin(17726): SERVER_PORT: 443 admin(17726): SSL_SERVER_I_DN_Email: xxxxxxx(a)xxxxxxxx.net admin(17726): SSL_VERSION_LIBRARY: OpenSSL/1.0.0a admin(17726): PYTHONPATH: /usr/lib/mailman admin(17726): SCRIPT_FILENAME: /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/admin.cgi admin(17726): SERVER_ADMIN: mailman-owner(a)xxxxxxxxxxx.net admin(17726): SSL_SERVER_S_DN_O: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx admin(17726): SSL_SERVER_A_SIG: sha1WithRSAEncryption admin(17726): SSL_SERVER_S_DN_L: Loganville admin(17726): SCRIPT_URI: https://xxxxx.xxxxxxxx.com/mailman/admin admin(17726): SCRIPT_URL: /mailman/admin admin(17726): HTTPS: on admin(17726): SSL_SERVER_M_VERSION: 1 admin(17726): SSL_SERVER_S_DN_C: US admin(17726): QUERY_STRING: admin(17726): REQUEST_URI: /mailman/admin admin(17726): HTTP_ACCEPT: text/html,application/xhtml+xml,application/xml;q=0.9,*/*;q=0.8 admin(17726): PERL5LIB: /usr/share/awstats/lib:/usr/share/awstats/plugins admin(17726): SSL_CIPHER_USEKEYSIZE: 256 admin(17726): HTTP_USER_AGENT: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:12.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/12.0 admin(17726): GATEWAY_INTERFACE: CGI/1.1 admin(17726): SSL_SERVER_I_DN_CN: localhost admin(17726): REMOTE_PORT: 4811 admin(17726): HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE: en-us,en;q=0.5 admin(17726): HTTP_DNT: 1 admin(17726): SSL_SERVER_V_END: Mar 17 13:32:36 2012 GMT admin(17726): SSL_PROTOCOL: SSLv3 admin(17726): HTTP_HOST: xxxxx.xxxxxxxx.com admin(17726): SSL_SERVER_S_DN_CN: xxxxx.xxxxxxxx.com admin(17726): HTTP_ACCEPT_ENCODING: gzip, deflate admin(17726): UNIQUE_ID: T5xOCn8AAAEAAE-BQyUAAAAN I don't have a clue what needs to be restored as I didn't even know this was using GPG.

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All mails do not reach to all users...
by Amit Bhatt 10 May '12

10 May '12

Dear experts, I had discuss the similar issue couple of Months back here. Actually the mails sent by the senders are not reaching to all the subscribers of my mailing list. I got some steps here and forwarded them to our web service provider but they could not resolve the issue. After facing huge problems, I finally shifted to the new service provider and they are Internationally known as very good service provider and their mail delivery and other services seem to be working fine but the issue of non delivery of E-mails to some users still remain there. I have discussed this matter with other moderators of two different mailing list and they told me that they also confront the same issue some time. so what does it mean? Is this a bug on Mailman? Can we expect not to be happened in mailman 3 in the coming future? Please, I would appreciate if someone can make me understand to do something in simple steps. Regards, Amit Bhatt

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